Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:39 am

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

Post by **The Tanager** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:33 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:Well then we agree on the point I was making.

As for your point about the holy spirit, if you can explain how that relates to the teaching of the TRINITY and how that in turn relates to a specific scripture, then I will certainly consider responding.

The trinitarian offers Mark 2:1-12 as showing that Jesus is God because it shows Jesus being able to do something only God can do. The "Jews" recognized this. Yes, as you said in that other thread, the Jewish leaders often misunderstood Jesus. Like in John 8:49. And, like I said there, Jesus told them so. He said he wasn't demon possessed, like they were claiming he was. Yet, he does not correct their charges of blasphemy in Mark 2. Jesus thought the Jewish leaders had it right in this case.

The opponent then says: what about John 20:19-23? As you rightly point out, this passage shows that humans who are not Almighty God can be given the authority to forgive sins. There are still at least two questions left unsettled at this point and, so, we must say more. (1) This does not settle our interpretation of why Jesus can forgive sins. (2) This does not settle the question of how Jesus' disciples are able to forgive sins.

On the first question, we look back at Mark and we see that at no point does it talk about Jesus being given the power to forgive sins like what is described in John 20 with Jesus' disciples. Mark 2:10 has Jesus saying that he has authority on earth to forgive sins. Not even the scene at Jesus' baptism in Mark 1 talks about Jesus being given this authority. Jesus just has the authority.

On the second question, Jesus does not just transfer authority to forgive sins to his disciples. It's not like they are identical in every respect besides now being able to forgive sins. No, they must be given the Holy Spirit for this authority to reside with them. It's like the difference between being told you can now play Quarterback for the Chicago Bears and being given the ability to actually make the reads and throws and decisions. The power is still God's Divine Presence.

And, so, this verse actually completes the idea of the Trinity with respect to the power to forgive sins. Every orthodox Jewish person knew only God could forgive sins. The Divine Presence is required for being able to forgive sins, because ultimately our sins are against Him. Then Jesus comes along and claims to have this authority as well. And then Jesus says that his disciples can do this directly because they have the Holy Spirit, the Divine Presence, within them.

TLIG · Post by **TLIG** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:38 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
TLIG wrote:

God created Jesus.

True or false?

TRUE. At least that is what I believe to be true as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

JW

RELATED POSTS

COLOSSIANS 1:15 Firstborn of Creation
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 885#934885

COLOSSIANS 1:15 "firstborn of all creation"" (prototokos)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 218#867218

FURTHER READING

SFBT Who created Jesus?
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.co ... jesus.html

Pick which one is the lie.

A.
Jesus was the first created of all creation.

B.
Jesus was the Firstborn of of all creation.

Which is it?

TLIG · Post by **TLIG** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:26 pm

Jesus was not or ever was an angel.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:36 am

[Replying to post 31 by The Tanager]

JESUS AUTHORITY

There is nothing in scripture that indicates that Jesus authority is or has ever been, absolute and infinite (as would be the case for and omnipotent God) rather than received and subordinate.

Was Jesus authority ABSOLUTE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 010#936010

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MATTHEW 28:18 " in the name of ..."
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 059#936059

MATTHEW 28:18 " with you always" OMNIPRESECE ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 147#936147

ACT 3:15 "author of life"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 277#936277

2 Cor. 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 191#936191

INDEX: So called trinity "proof" texts
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 772#935772

FURTHER READING

SFBT Full scripture INDEX
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

Trinity "proof" texts debunked
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/trinity_prooftexts.htm

Post by **The Tanager** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:20 am

[Replying to post 34 by JehovahsWitness]

Are you aware of verses that say Jesus' authority is not absolute and infinite? If so, please share them here so I can look at them and challenge my understanding. I looked at your linked thread and didn't find you offering any scripture that said that, but maybe I overlooked it.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:41 am

[Replying to post 35 by The Tanager]

Yes, such statements are implicit in the verses indexed below.

JESUS: AUTHORITY NOT ABSOLUTE

Jesus did speak and act with an authority hitherto unseen on earth. The question is, was this because Jesus was Almighty God himself or because He was given that authority? Note what the following Catholic Bibles have to say:

Code: Select all

JERUSALEM BIBLE

 Jesus replied&#58; In all truth I tell you, by himself the Son can do nothing -- John 5&#58;19

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JOHN 3&#58;35
"The Father loves the Son and has GIVEN  all things into His hand.

MATTHEW 11&#58;27
"All things have been HANDED OVER to Me by My Father;

MATTHEW 28&#58;18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been GIVEN TO ME in heaven and on earth. teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

CAPs Mine

There are absolutely no verses in the entire bible that explicitly or implicitly implies that YHWH (The Father) received any of his authority at any time from another source or that he cannot act alone or independently. The scriptures unfailingly and exclusively identify YAHWEH alone as the ALMIGHTY (omnipotent) God.

ISAIAH 44: 24
"Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth -- who is with Me?" - Young's Literal Translation

Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)

On the other hand, the bible silent in such affirmations for Jesus whether before or after his his return to spirit life in heaven as the resurrected Christ. He is never called "Christ the Almighty" and all recorded statements from Jesus on the subject of his authority in relation to the Father indicate subordination on his part. It is therefore contingent on trinitarians that suggest such statements were subsequently abbrigated to provide evidence to support such a conclusion.

RELATED POSTS

How can Jesus be "Lord of the Sabbath" if he is not Almighty God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 987#935987

Did Jesus place his words on the same level as Gods?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 602#936602

Scriptural reasons to conclude Jesus is not Almighty God
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 572#751572
Also see
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 945#916945

INDEX Trinitarian so-called "proof texts" debunked
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:02 am

continued ...

RELATED POST

WHOSE WORDS DID JESUS SPEAK?

Did Jesus place his own words on the same level as God's

Jesus was a messenger and only said what he was sent to say, he publically went on record affirming that what he said was not of his own originality.

Code: Select all

JERUSALEM BIBLE


For I have not spoken of my own accord; but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and what to speak - John 12&#58;49

Code: Select all

DOUAY-RHEIMS 

Jesus answered them, and said&#58; My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me - John 7&#58;16

FURTHER READING

Full scripture index
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

Trinity "proof" texts debunked
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/trinity_prooftexts.htm

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:08 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 19 by The Tanager]

So are saying someone can be given the authority to forgive sins without that meaning the person is literally Almighty God?

RESPONSE: Of course! Catholic priests do it all the time.

Post by **The Tanager** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:50 pm

I have been claiming that Jesus has always had the authority to forgive sins. I don't think the verses you bring up explicitly or implicitly speak against that.

John 5:16-30

You brought up verse 19 where Jesus says that he doesn't do his work by himself. Trinitarians accept this wholeheartedly. If Jesus was working by himself, the Trinity would not be the conclusion; it'd be polytheism.

I'm surprised you focused on that verse rather than vv. 26-27. The Father grants the Son to have life in himself and gives Jesus the authority to judge. But let's look at the bigger context. The Jewish leaders are persecuting Jesus because he was breaking the Sabbath and calling God his own Father "making himself equal with God" (v. 18). Sometimes the Jews accuse Jesus of something and he says, "no, that's wrong," like in John 8:48-49. He does not say that here. In fact he goes on to say, among other things, that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father (23). If Jesus was only human or an angel and knew the real God he would not claim that.

Add into this that the author of this book, in the very first sentence, claims Jesus existed with God in the beginning and that Jesus is God. John 5:26-27 does not say Jesus just recently were given these things by God. The author believed Jesus to be God and this would involve always having these powers. Yes, the Father gives it to the Son, but this is from eternity within the Trinitarian relationship.

John 3:35; John 12:44-50; John 7:16

The above applies here as well.

Matthew 11:25-29

The above could apply here as well. This passage does not have Jesus saying that the Father just now gave him this power. And let's look further at this passage, since you brought it up. In the Tanakh, God is the One who gives strength to the weary, for instance Isaiah 40:29. But in the Matthean passage, Jesus tells us to come to him, not to the Father for rest from our weariness. If Jesus is who you think he is, he would have said for us to go to the Father for rest, because God gives us rest. He does not.

Matthew 28:16-20

The above can apply here as well since this passage does not say when Jesus was given this authority. And looking further at this passage, why did you choose a translation that leaves out that the baptizing should be in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? Most translations have it there. Also, the disciples are worshiping Jesus (17) and Jesus does not correct them.

JehovahsWitness wrote:There are absolutely no verses in the entire bible that explicitly or implicitly implies that YHWH (The Father) received any of his authority at any time from another source or that he cannot act alone or independently. The scriptures unfailingly and exclusively identify YAHWEH alone as the ALMIGHTY (omnipotent) God.

Trinitarians don't think Yahweh, God, received his authority from another source or that He is dependent on another. We believe this God to be a Trinity. The Trinity does not receive authority from another. The Son receives things from the Father, however.

Walterbl · Post by **Walterbl** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:56 pm

Jesus fullfilled old testament prophecy in a way nobody has ever done. Read Lee Strobel for references.