Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)
The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:
1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)
Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations
2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.
Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?
2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?
3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:
a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?
b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?
For which Jehovah should we witness?
Moderator: Moderators
Post #91
[Replying to brianbbs67]
Rev 21:3-4
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.�
When Jesus was resurrected he made it clear by eating that his new resurrected state was a physical one.
The contrast between Hebrew and Greek thought is perhaps suggested when Paul preaches in Athens in Acts 17. They listen to him until he speaks about the resurrection and then they sneer (although some were curious).
The hope of the resurrection body was the very opposite of the Greek hope of escaping the physical and returning to a purely spiritual world. Greek thought saw the physical universe as a result of the chaos and conflict between the gods. Heaven therefore was seen as an escape from the physical world and bodily life a necessary evil to escape.
I think John and Paul are reflecting Hebrew thought that there is no specific conflict between the physical and spiritual. God creates a physical universe and considers it very good. He walks and talks with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Its sin that spoils his good creation and separates him from humanity - not that he has a problem with relating to physical beings in a physical universe. The hope in Hebrew thought is for a new heavens and new earth (e.g. Isaiah 65-66) which are clearly physical. This is expressed in Rev 21 as heaven coming down to the new earth and God coming to dwell with his people in the physical universe:If Christ was given the fullness of the Diety, everyone who looked upon him would have perished and there would be no religion or anything else. So, his human being was diluted a bit.
I agree that CHrist is the mediator and that is how God wants it.
Rev 21:3-4
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.�
When Jesus was resurrected he made it clear by eating that his new resurrected state was a physical one.
The contrast between Hebrew and Greek thought is perhaps suggested when Paul preaches in Athens in Acts 17. They listen to him until he speaks about the resurrection and then they sneer (although some were curious).
The hope of the resurrection body was the very opposite of the Greek hope of escaping the physical and returning to a purely spiritual world. Greek thought saw the physical universe as a result of the chaos and conflict between the gods. Heaven therefore was seen as an escape from the physical world and bodily life a necessary evil to escape.
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #92[Replying to polonius]
Since Genesis 18-19 is one narrative account of an event - i.e YHWH/Jehovah and two angels visiting Abraham before they go onto to destroy Sodom - its best to read the whole thing. Looking at verses out of its context can be misleading. In the same way as trying to understand a scene in Shakespeare, or any other narrative, by looking at a few isolated lines rather than reading the whole scene.
Anyway, as you read the two chapters some verses to look out for are (these are all in the New International Version but as I say I don't think there's anything particularly special about this translation):
Jehovah/YHWH appears to Abraham
Genesis 18:1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day."
Three 'men' in total visit Abraham
Genesis 18:2"Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground."
Who are the three persons?
Genesis 18:16-17 says that some of the men went to leave, whilst YHWH/Jehovah stayed with Abraham:
"When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?""
Two of the three 'men' that appeared to Abraham are identified as angels in Genesis 19:1 and distinguished from Jehovah/YHWH who stayed talking with Abraham:
"The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground."
The person that remains with Abraham after the two angels leave is YHWH/Jehovah (the word translated Lord is YHWH/Jehovah):
Genesis 18:20-21 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.�
Genesis 18:23 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
YHWH/Jehovah then leaves Abraham to go to Sodom:
Genesis 18: 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
YHWH/Jehovah who spoke with Abraham and leaves for Sodom is distinguished from YHWH/Jehovah in the heavens from whom he calls down sulfur on Sodom:
Genesis 19:23-24 disintinguishes the Lord who has gone from Abraham to Sodom from the Lord in the heavens (both are addressed in Hebrew as YHWH/Jehovah):
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.
Do you agree with my interpretation of the narrative in Genesis 18-19? If not, what do you think is a more reasonable interpretation of the passage?
As far as I can see I've provided the citations and said that the translation doesn't matter. I find the NIV relatively easy to read, but all the other translations of these passages are similar. Also if you prefer to look at a translation that denies the Trinity, the Jehovah Witnesses NWT also essentially translates the passages the same - so I don't think which translation is an issue.RESPONSE: Please provide the citation for the Bible, chapter , and verse that you quoted.
Since Genesis 18-19 is one narrative account of an event - i.e YHWH/Jehovah and two angels visiting Abraham before they go onto to destroy Sodom - its best to read the whole thing. Looking at verses out of its context can be misleading. In the same way as trying to understand a scene in Shakespeare, or any other narrative, by looking at a few isolated lines rather than reading the whole scene.
Anyway, as you read the two chapters some verses to look out for are (these are all in the New International Version but as I say I don't think there's anything particularly special about this translation):
Jehovah/YHWH appears to Abraham
Genesis 18:1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day."
Three 'men' in total visit Abraham
Genesis 18:2"Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground."
Who are the three persons?
Genesis 18:16-17 says that some of the men went to leave, whilst YHWH/Jehovah stayed with Abraham:
"When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?""
Two of the three 'men' that appeared to Abraham are identified as angels in Genesis 19:1 and distinguished from Jehovah/YHWH who stayed talking with Abraham:
"The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground."
The person that remains with Abraham after the two angels leave is YHWH/Jehovah (the word translated Lord is YHWH/Jehovah):
Genesis 18:20-21 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.�
Genesis 18:23 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.
YHWH/Jehovah then leaves Abraham to go to Sodom:
Genesis 18: 33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
YHWH/Jehovah who spoke with Abraham and leaves for Sodom is distinguished from YHWH/Jehovah in the heavens from whom he calls down sulfur on Sodom:
Genesis 19:23-24 disintinguishes the Lord who has gone from Abraham to Sodom from the Lord in the heavens (both are addressed in Hebrew as YHWH/Jehovah):
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens.
Do you agree with my interpretation of the narrative in Genesis 18-19? If not, what do you think is a more reasonable interpretation of the passage?
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #93[Replying to post 84 by polonius]
Hi polonius, anticipating a follow up question, it might be asked is God appearing to people in Genesis 18-19 a one-off?
No, there are plenty of other verses in the Hebrew Bible. Here's a brief selection of some other examples. I think these were all from the New International Version:
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:
And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Hi polonius, anticipating a follow up question, it might be asked is God appearing to people in Genesis 18-19 a one-off?
No, there are plenty of other verses in the Hebrew Bible. Here's a brief selection of some other examples. I think these were all from the New International Version:
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:
And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #94dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 84 by polonius]
Hi polonius, anticipating a follow up question, it might be asked is God appearing to people in Genesis 18-19 a one-off?
No, there are plenty of other verses in the Hebrew Bible. Here's a brief selection of some other examples. I think these were all from the New International Version:
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:
And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
RESPONSE: What do you mean by a "one-off." ?
Please check current history. Books 1 through 7 of the Bible were written between 800 and 700 BC, They are a legend of the founding of Israel. Not a history. For example, there were no Hebrews in Egypt and no Exodus. (See The "Bible Unearthed" on the web.)
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #95polonius wrote:dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 84 by polonius]
Hi polonius, anticipating a follow up question, it might be asked is God appearing to people in Genesis 18-19 a one-off?
No, there are plenty of other verses in the Hebrew Bible. Here's a brief selection of some other examples. I think these were all from the New International Version:
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:
And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
RESPONSE: What do you mean by a "one-off." ?
Please check current history. Books 1 through 7 of the Bible were written between 800 and 700 BC, They are a legend of the founding of Israel. Not a history. For example, there were no Hebrews in Egypt and no Exodus. (See The "Bible Unearthed" on the web.)
I don't think this addresses my argument at all - but that's fine.
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #96dakoski wrote:polonius wrote:dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 84 by polonius]
Hi polonius, anticipating a follow up question, it might be asked is God appearing to people in Genesis 18-19 a one-off?
No, there are plenty of other verses in the Hebrew Bible. Here's a brief selection of some other examples. I think these were all from the New International Version:
Genesis 16:9-14
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.� 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.�11 The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael,[a] for the Lord has heard of your misery.12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.�13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,� for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.� 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.�
Exodus 3:1-6
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.�4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!� And Moses said, “Here I am.� 5 “Do not come any closer,� God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.� 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
Exodus 33:10-11
10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to their tent. 11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
[This person who is YHWH/Jehovah (in v11 the word Lord again is a translation of YHWH/Jehovah) and speaks face to face with Moses is contrasted with another person also addressed as YHWH/Jehovah who Moses may not see face to face]:
And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. But,� he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.� (Exodus 33:19-20)
Numbers 14:13-14
13 Moses said to the Lord, “Then the Egyptians will hear about it! By your power you brought these people up from among them. 14 And they will tell the inhabitants of this land about it. They have already heard that you, Lord, are with these people and that you, Lord, have been seen face to face, that your cloud stays over them, and that you go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.
Judges 13:17-22
17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?�18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.[a]� 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!� he said to his wife. “We have seen God!�
Judges 6:11-24
11 The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, “The Lord is with you, mighty warrior.� 13 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our ancestors told us about when they said, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.� 14 The Lord turned to him and said, “Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian’s hand. Am I not sending you?�15 “Pardon me, my lord,� Gideon replied, “but how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family.�16 The Lord answered, “I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites, leaving none alive.�17 Gideon replied, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you.� And the Lord said, “I will wait until you return.�19 Gideon went inside, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah[a] of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth.� And Gideon did so. 21 Then the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of the staff that was in his hand. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!�23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die.�24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord Is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
RESPONSE: What do you mean by a "one-off." ?
Please check current history. Books 1 through 7 of the Bible were written between 800 and 700 BC, They are a legend of the founding of Israel. Not a history. For example, there were no Hebrews in Egypt and no Exodus. (See The "Bible Unearthed" on the web.)
I don't think this addresses my argument at all - but that's fine.
RESPONSE: Then you should use a bible other than the NIV
https://www.douglasjacoby.com/niv-errors/
The NIV served me well, especially in my first decade as a Christian. Since then, I have read the entire Bible in many different translations. My aim is not to denigrate the NIV. Still, and in part because the NIV is a "dynamic equivalence" translation, translating idea by idea rather than word by word, there are some errors. There is a much heavier interpretive element in this version than in the stricter, more formal translations.
In this article we will consider nine passages, all from the N.T.
Perhaps you should consider using the New Revised Standard Bible sponsored by the World Council of Churches
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #97[Replying to polonius]
Yeah agreed there is no perfect translation, I'm not wedded to any particular one. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Where there are differences in translating a passage its worth trying to understand the nuance of what the translators are grappling with and what is better supported by context, grammar etc. As far as I can see there is no real debate about how to translate Genesis 18-19 as I've looked at over a dozen and they effectively say the same thing.
RESPONSE: Then you should use a bible other than the NIV
https://www.douglasjacoby.com/niv-errors/
The NIV served me well, especially in my first decade as a Christian. Since then, I have read the entire Bible in many different translations. My aim is not to denigrate the NIV. Still, and in part because the NIV is a "dynamic equivalence" translation, translating idea by idea rather than word by word, there are some errors. There is a much heavier interpretive element in this version than in the stricter, more formal translations.
In this article we will consider nine passages, all from the N.T.
Perhaps you should consider using the New Revised Standard Bible sponsored by the World Council of Churches
Yeah agreed there is no perfect translation, I'm not wedded to any particular one. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Where there are differences in translating a passage its worth trying to understand the nuance of what the translators are grappling with and what is better supported by context, grammar etc. As far as I can see there is no real debate about how to translate Genesis 18-19 as I've looked at over a dozen and they effectively say the same thing.
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #98Dakowski claimed:
RESPONSE:
Jehovah isn't one of the angels. Where do you get this idea? Jehovah is not an angel.
Even the Jehovah Witnesses tell us that "The Holy Scriptures are clear and consistent in showing that at times an angel, or angels, represented and spoke for Jehovah—and often in the “first person�. The following are several examples of this, but certainly not all. When an angel speaks for Jehovah in the first person (as if the angel were actually God Himself), the angel was neither presumptuous nor blasphemous since Jehovah God Himself dispatched the angel as an agent to act in His name."
"Jehovah is the true God of the Bible, the Creator of all things. (Revelation 4:11) The prophets Abraham and Moses worshipped him, as did Jesus. (Genesis 24:27; Exodus 15:1, 2; John 20:17) He is the God, not just of one people, but of “all the earth.�—Psalm 47:2."
Genesis 18:1-2 New International Version (NIV)18
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,� he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.�Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)
RESPONSE:
Jehovah isn't one of the angels. Where do you get this idea? Jehovah is not an angel.
Even the Jehovah Witnesses tell us that "The Holy Scriptures are clear and consistent in showing that at times an angel, or angels, represented and spoke for Jehovah—and often in the “first person�. The following are several examples of this, but certainly not all. When an angel speaks for Jehovah in the first person (as if the angel were actually God Himself), the angel was neither presumptuous nor blasphemous since Jehovah God Himself dispatched the angel as an agent to act in His name."
"Jehovah is the true God of the Bible, the Creator of all things. (Revelation 4:11) The prophets Abraham and Moses worshipped him, as did Jesus. (Genesis 24:27; Exodus 15:1, 2; John 20:17) He is the God, not just of one people, but of “all the earth.�—Psalm 47:2."
Genesis 18:1-2 New International Version (NIV)18
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Re: Three people (angels) or two angels and Jehovah?
Post #99[Replying to polonius]
Genesis 18:1 talks of Jehovah/YHWH appearing to Abraham.
Genesis 18:2 adds some further detail that it is three people that visit him
Genesis 19:1 states that two of these people were angels and have left for Sodom
Who is left of the three visitors speaking with Abraham? 3-2 angels = 1 person: Jehovah/YHWH (Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33).
You're just making a circular argument in a similar way to JW above in the thread:
1) YHWH is God the Father
2) If another person in the Hebrew Bible is referred to as YHWH then its not YHWH
What would the Hebrew Bible have to say to lead you to conclude anyone other than the Father (who no one may see and live) is also YHWH? It can't be any clearer but I can't see that anything the Hebrew Bible could say would penetrate your circular argument to change that assumption.
Its fairly simple arithmetic:19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,� he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.�
RESPONSE:
Jehovah isn't one of the angels. Where do you get this idea? Jehovah is not an angel.
Even the Jehovah Witnesses tell us that "The Holy Scriptures are clear and consistent in showing that at times an angel, or angels, represented and spoke for Jehovah—and often in the “first person�. The following are several examples of this, but certainly not all. When an angel speaks for Jehovah in the first person (as if the angel were actually God Himself), the angel was neither presumptuous nor blasphemous since Jehovah God Himself dispatched the angel as an agent to act in His name."
"Jehovah is the true God of the Bible, the Creator of all things. (Revelation 4:11) The prophets Abraham and Moses worshipped him, as did Jesus. (Genesis 24:27; Exodus 15:1, 2; John 20:17) He is the God, not just of one people, but of “all the earth.�—Psalm 47:2."
Genesis 18:1-2 New International Version (NIV)18
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Genesis 18:1 talks of Jehovah/YHWH appearing to Abraham.
Genesis 18:2 adds some further detail that it is three people that visit him
Genesis 19:1 states that two of these people were angels and have left for Sodom
Who is left of the three visitors speaking with Abraham? 3-2 angels = 1 person: Jehovah/YHWH (Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33).
Can you give me one example, other than the angel of YHWH who is referred to as YHWH? There is no example as far as I can tell. Is Michael or Gabriel or any other angel ever called YHWH? Not that I'm aware - if this was a common convention we would expect to see it throughout the Hebrew Bible. There's no Biblical warrant for such an assumption.Even the Jehovah Witnesses tell us that "The Holy Scriptures are clear and consistent in showing that at times an angel, or angels, represented and spoke for Jehovah—and often in the “first person�. The following are several examples of this, but certainly not all. When an angel speaks for Jehovah in the first person (as if the angel were actually God Himself), the angel was neither presumptuous nor blasphemous since Jehovah God Himself dispatched the angel as an agent to act in His name."
You're just making a circular argument in a similar way to JW above in the thread:
1) YHWH is God the Father
2) If another person in the Hebrew Bible is referred to as YHWH then its not YHWH
What would the Hebrew Bible have to say to lead you to conclude anyone other than the Father (who no one may see and live) is also YHWH? It can't be any clearer but I can't see that anything the Hebrew Bible could say would penetrate your circular argument to change that assumption.
The Lord plus three angel
Post #100Dakoski posted:
Genesis 18:1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day."
Genesis 18:2"Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground."
The Lord = 1, three men = three angels, not the Lord.
YHWH
"Jehovah" was popularized in the English-speaking world by William Tyndale and other pioneer English Protestant translations such as the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[3] It is still used in some translations, such as the New World Translation, the American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, but it does not appear in most mainstream English translations, as the terms "Lord" or "LORD" are used instead, generally indicating that the corresponding Hebrew is Yahweh or YHWH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah
RESPONSE: How then do you immediately conclude that the third person must be God?Its fairly simple arithmetic:
Genesis 18:1 talks of Jehovah/YHWH appearing to Abraham.
Genesis 18:2 adds some further detail that it is three people that visit him
Genesis 19:1 states that two of these people were angels and have left for Sodom
RESPONSE: Yes. One person but not Jehovah. Note the plain meaning.Who is left of the three visitors speaking with Abraham? 3-2 angels = 1 person: Jehovah/YHWH (Genesis 18:20-21, 18:23, 18:33).
Genesis 18:1 "The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day."
Genesis 18:2"Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground."
The Lord = 1, three men = three angels, not the Lord.
YHWH
"Jehovah" was popularized in the English-speaking world by William Tyndale and other pioneer English Protestant translations such as the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[3] It is still used in some translations, such as the New World Translation, the American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, but it does not appear in most mainstream English translations, as the terms "Lord" or "LORD" are used instead, generally indicating that the corresponding Hebrew is Yahweh or YHWH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah
