Symbolism of the cross.

[Elijah John]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Paul's interpretation was that Jesus death was a blood-atonement. But that's just it, his was an interpretation. No matter that the Church and millions of Christians take that interpretation as "Gospel" it is still an interpretation.

Even if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead, it's a good story, isn't it. After all, here we have a disgraced, failed apocalyptic prophet executed at the hands of the mighty Roman empire. Yet, God vindicates Jesus, and makes him triumphant in his resurrection and ascension. "Christ" lives on in the hearts of millions as their Lord and Savior, even as the Roman empire has fallen.

As a Theistic skeptic, what I derive from this story is this. God favors the lowly of the world, and the world's values are not God's values. The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden. That interpretation is in line with the teachings of Synoptic Jesus (Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" etc) and even with some of the teachings of Paul. ("God chooses the weak to shame the strong" or words to that effect)

Also, I see Jesus death as a martyrdom. He died for his beliefs and for his devotion to God as he understood Him. And God vindicated that devotion by raising Jesus from the dead. (in one way, or another)

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you? Beyond blood-redemption, do you (even as a dissenter from orthodoxy or even as an atheist) find any value in the story of the crucifixion and resurrection? Whether or not it actually happened?

[Tcg]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Not for me. If Jesus didn't die to pay for sins, and I agree that he didn't, then I can't imagine any value to his death.

I hold no belief in any proposed idea of an afterlife. Given that, from my view, what takes place in this life, the only one we know for sure we have, is primary and is in fact the only one that matters.

Jesus' death didn't provide anything of value and in fact left him in a position where he could no longer provide any help of any kind to his fellow humans.

The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden.

I don't see how. It is the ultimate symbol that the oppressors of the downtrodden won. Jesus was killed and his death provided no benefit to anyone.

[marco]

HDS does not need elaboration in this case.

I suggest you have just played the classic "please explain" dodge.

Moderator Comment


Hello Stuart, the problem with this and your post 2 is they make negative comment with no explanation. Best back up what you say with argument. And it's wise to avoid making negative comments about a fellow poster's motivation.

Please review the Rules.


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[1213]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

I think it had great value in that by it, disciples of Jesus got courage to continue the job so that even we can today hear the message Jesus declared.

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

By dying, Jesus could be risen from death and by rising from death he showed that death is not the end and that gave the courage to his disciples. Before it, disciples were afraid and could not have done anything and we would not have the message today. That is why it was important and meaningful thing.

[Elijah John]

I don't see how. It is the ultimate symbol that the oppressors of the downtrodden won. Jesus was killed and his death provided no benefit to anyone.

Granted. The cross without a resurrection does indicate victory for the oppressor. But the resurrection represents a turnaround victory in the story, just when it seemed that all was lost.

Can't we derive inspiration from a story, even if it didn't really "happen"? If the resurrection was myth?

Or do mythis have no value, even psychologically, except for entertainment value?

But in this case, one could argue that a resurrection of sorts did occur. And we witness that today, in the RCC and it's offshoots. The empire is gone, Christ's religion, lives.

(edited some typos on 12-3-18)

[Elijah John]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

I think it had great value in that by it, disciples of Jesus got courage to continue the job so that even we can today hear the message Jesus declared.

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

By dying, Jesus could be risen from death and by rising from death he showed that death is not the end and that gave the courage to his disciples. Before it, disciples were afraid and could not have done anything and we would not have the message today. That is why it was important and meaningful thing.

So even if not an atonement, Jesus martyrdom and resurrection was certainly an encouragement. Very good point.

The resurrection may have actually happened in one form or another, or it may be just a story. But the martyrdom and courage of the early Christians is more than just a story, that actually happened.

It does make one wonder.

[marco]

I think it had great value in that by it, disciples of Jesus got courage to continue the job so that even we can today hear the message Jesus declared.

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

Your point seems to be that the faint hearted can be stimulated to brave deeds by encouragement or example or even by a fictional story. Some have taken the tale of Bruce watching a spider persist in building a web as ispirational, whether it happened or not.

The wheat grain is a nice piece of poetry. It inspired Gide to write his remarkable autobiographical novel "Si le grain ne meurt" (If it Die). I don't think the tale of Jesus dying and coming back to life is a solitary example of what inspires humans.

[Tcg]

Can't we derive inspiration from a story, even if it didn't really "happen"? If the resurrection was myth?

I thought your inquiry was to individuals. Given that, I answered for myself, not for "us".

Obviously some people derive inspiration from the story. As my earlier reply revealed, I am not one of them.

[marco]

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you? Beyond blood-redemption, do you (even as a dissenter from orthodoxy or even as an atheist) find any value in the story of the crucifixion and resurrection? Whether or not it actually happened?

I think Jesus was a preacher of no great importance to Rome. He fruitlessly begged the God he adored, then placed his faith in what he understood was his physical return.


Sweep away a few centuries and this obscure Jew rises like a ghost above Europe, moves through Africa and across to America and Australia, a far cry from his footsore travels around Galilee and Jerusalem. In many ways this resurgence, this discovery of Jesus in the preaching and writing of prelates and theologians, is the Resurrection he did not expect. In a real sense he died, but lives on. Who needs atonement theories or empty tombs? If evidence you want, look around you.


That's one way of seeing it.

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Can't really argue with much of that. I would just add this; that if love is to be measured at all, it is to be measured by the extent of sacrifice one is prepared to make. And that to sacrifice one's life for love is pretty well as much as anyone can sacrifice. So, for me, Jesus gets a 'hero' rating, for the extent of the love He demonstrably bore. And that is why the cross matters.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Elijah John]

Can't we derive inspiration from a story, even if it didn't really "happen"? If the resurrection was myth?

I thought your inquiry was to individuals. Given that, I answered for myself, not for "us".

Obviously some people derive inspiration from the story. As my earlier reply revealed, I am not one of them.

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said "can one derive.." as opposed to "can we derive..."