Symbolism of the cross.

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12235
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Symbolism of the cross.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Paul's interpretation was that Jesus death was a blood-atonement. But that's just it, his was an interpretation. No matter that the Church and millions of Christians take that interpretation as "Gospel" it is still an interpretation.

Even if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead, it's a good story, isn't it. After all, here we have a disgraced, failed apocalyptic prophet executed at the hands of the mighty Roman empire. Yet, God vindicates Jesus, and makes him triumphant in his resurrection and ascension. "Christ" lives on in the hearts of millions as their Lord and Savior, even as the Roman empire has fallen.

As a Theistic skeptic, what I derive from this story is this. God favors the lowly of the world, and the world's values are not God's values. The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden. That interpretation is in line with the teachings of Synoptic Jesus (Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" etc) and even with some of the teachings of Paul. ("God chooses the weak to shame the strong" or words to that effect)

Also, I see Jesus death as a martyrdom. He died for his beliefs and for his devotion to God as he understood Him. And God vindicated that devotion by raising Jesus from the dead. (in one way, or another)

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you? Beyond blood-redemption, do you (even as a dissenter from orthodoxy or even as an atheist) find any value in the story of the crucifixion and resurrection? Whether or not it actually happened?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Post #41

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 9 by ElCodeMonkey]
The only value I see in the Crucifixion is the honorable death of holding to one's beliefs even unto torment and death. Who knows if he had much of a choice, but he saw the hate and the danger ahead of time yet he continued to press on. Jesus was in fact a hero in that regard. He saw the corruption of doing what's right turned into religious dogma, he knew all the previous prophets were murdered before him, and yet still he tried to find a way to combat the pattern of religiosity, to persevere, and to ensure the proper message of goodness remained even unto his own demise.
This may be effectivly the case, however I'm not quite sure that he's holding onto his beliefs, or that it is a case of his demise. There's an old saying that "those closest to the truth are the best liars", but there's also a point at which one reaches a point of no return and cannot bear witness falsely. This isn't heroism which is easily recognizable, but more in line with the definition of a saint. They don't have a life so their is no demise as they have already sacrificed themselves to the truth.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #42

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 10 by brunumb]

The meek have always been suppressed and will never inherit the earth. It is only when the meek overcame it and rose up against tyranny that they ever achieved anything.
Hardly, when the earth is despoiled, polluted, toxic, and left in ruin, the meek are the only one's left with it.
God should not play favourites. Besides, there is nothing wrong with being strong, so why should God shame them? We are often encouraged to be strong in the face of adversity. Is there some virtue in being weak?
The virtue is not in being weak, but it noting that the strenght does not originate from oneself.
Just another story in the myths and legends genre.
It's always interesting to hear people refer to myths as "just another story" as if they have no explanatory power. The fact that they have been around for millennia is a testament to their value, and yet most have only a superficial familiarity with any of them at all.

When someone accomplishes something extraordinary, and others refer to it as "legendary", it isn't because it was just another story.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #43

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 14 by Elijah John]
The cross without a resurrection does indicate victory for the oppressor. But the resurrection represents a turnaround victory in the story, just when it seemed that all was lost.
I think there's a problem with this in that people have differing ideas of just what this term "resurrection" is supposed to mean. For those who equate it with a resurrection of his physical body, to then suggest that it doesn't mean that at all means all is lost. Whereas those who look at Christ's teachings don't see it that way because they no longer identify with anyone other than Christ. To them, they see Christ in their oppressors. The oppressors can't win when everyone they are oppressing suddenly decides to opt out of their rule and accept death. When the oppressors have no one to rule over they are no longer able to oppress or rule over anyone. At some point the ptb, have to reassess the situation, and co-opt the movement which seems to be what happened with Constantine, no?
Can't we derive inspiration from a story, even if it didn't really "happen"? If the resurrection was myth?
Here again, I don't quite understand why so many people seem to equate myth with an inability to derive meaning. I know you aren't necessasrily saying that, but when looked upon as myth, it seems to me that this is precisely where the most meaning is going to be gleaned. Mythologies are a fantastic way to give context to an abundance of meaning.
do mythis have no value, even psychologically, except for entertainment value?
Jordan Peterson has some fantastic videos uploaded online that you would find interesting. I suspect you may have already checked them out, but thought I'd mention them just in case you hadn't. There is much more to be gleaned than entertainment value.

The resurrection may have actually happened in one form or another, or it may be just a story. But the martyrdom and courage of the early Christians is more than just a story, that actually happened.

It does make one wonder.
Buddhists claim that it makes no difference if the stories of the Buddha are factual or not; it is the truth contained within the stories that matters.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #44

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 21 by Elijah John]
I wonder sometimes if the Resurrection was never intended to be taken litrally, and instead was concieved as a type of "mystery religion". There are clues. The disciples on the road to Emmaus did not recognize the risen Jesus until he broke the bread. And Paul references the "mystical body of Christ", equating it with the Church.
Those two examples (although I don't recall Paul referring to the church as "mystical") inform me that the intent was never to be interperted as religion, but as a way to reconnect with reality. The reality is that the two on their way to Emaus began to see what Christ taught, i.e. that Christ is in everyone; they recognized it in companionship. The word itself means "con"=with pan=bread. Just something as simple as sitting to down to "break bread" with others is all it takes to see it.
Perhaps the only risen Jesus we have is in this corpus, this mystical body we call the Church. And communion is food for that mystical body of Christ.
Well said.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #45

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 11 by Tcg]
It doesn't provide the least bit of inspiration to me.
I noticed this in myself for years. There simply was nothing that inspired me. I was basically incapable of being inspired. This is one of the curious phenonena of texts such as the bible. They seem to affect people in so many different ways. What I've noticed is that as one becomes more familiar with these texts they don't continue to have the same effect. Some become inspired, loving, forgiving, generous, selfless, etc. while others become tediously bored. Then there are those who become enraged, vindictive, contemptuous, arrogant, senile, etc. It is fascinating to see the braod spectrum of reactions that can emerge just from one book.

The question I sometimes ask, is it the book itself that produces these reactions, or are these characteristics simply what already exists inherantly within each individual?

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #46

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]
The Ten seem pretty universal. Jews say the Sabbath law does not apply to "the Nations". (Gentiles)
I hadn't heard this before. Although I do recall something about the Noahide laws which don't include observance of the Sabbath. The problem I have is in noting that the Mosaic law itself provides that "there is one law for the native and foreign born alike". When the foreigner is in the land, they are afforded the same consideration as the Jew, and must rest on the Sabbath along with their livestock. The source I always see most prominently displayed for ignoring the 4th commandment is from Christian doctrines and traditions themselves.
Some of the 603 are related to the governace of Moses theocracy. Others, to ritual sacrifice. Many are obsolete, their Divine origin suspect.
There are 613 without any dealing with ritual sacrifice. It's interesting that their obsolescence is associated with this suspicion of divine origin. For example, the law of jealousies was explicitly dealing with a situation where God decides the fate of the accused, but when Israel fell into idolatry, etc. God is no longer there in the temple. The fact that there is a holiness code doesn't seem suspect to me at all. It seems to provide a clear picture of a people who were terrified of a holy God whose presence alone was enough to vaporize anyone who got too close without being in a holy state themselves. It is no wonder that they would then go to such meticulous lenghts to insure that they weren't on a suicide mission when carrying out their priestly duties.

shnarkle
Guru
Posts: 2054
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Jesus was crucified for insurrection against Rome

Post #47

Post by shnarkle »

[Replying to post 36 by polonius]
The Romans rarely crucified criminals, but in the case of a insurrectionist, crucifixion was the penalty. The charge sheet on Jesus' cross said mockingly, “King of the Jews.�
There were two "thieves" crucified as well. The Romans didn't have a problem crucifying anyone for no good reason. Pilate is a prime example of someone who couldn't care less what he may or may not have done. He had him scourged just for fun, then hands him over to be crucified even though he has admitted that he finds him innocent of any treasonous accusations. So much for a crucifixion being a rarity. Jews have pointed out that Jesus was one of countless Jews to be crucified under Roman rule.
“Paying for our sins� was Paul’s rationalization to avoid the embarrassing facts.
It is hardly an embarassing fact when Paul seems to go out of his way to point out that anyone who is crucified is cursed. It is central to his message. His message would be meaningless without it.

showme
Sage
Posts: 881
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: Symbolism of the cross.

Post #48

Post by showme »

Elijah John wrote: For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Paul's interpretation was that Jesus death was a blood-atonement. But that's just it, his was an interpretation. No matter that the Church and millions of Christians take that interpretation as "Gospel" it is still an interpretation.

Even if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead, it's a good story, isn't it. After all, here we have a disgraced, failed apocalyptic prophet executed at the hands of the mighty Roman empire. Yet, God vindicates Jesus, and makes him triumphant in his resurrection and ascension. "Christ" lives on in the hearts of millions as their Lord and Savior, even as the Roman empire has fallen.

As a Theistic skeptic, what I derive from this story is this. God favors the lowly of the world, and the world's values are not God's values. The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden. That interpretation is in line with the teachings of Synoptic Jesus (Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" etc) and even with some of the teachings of Paul. ("God chooses the weak to shame the strong" or words to that effect)

Also, I see Jesus death as a martyrdom. He died for his beliefs and for his devotion to God as he understood Him. And God vindicated that devotion by raising Jesus from the dead. (in one way, or another)

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you? Beyond blood-redemption, do you (even as a dissenter from orthodoxy or even as an atheist) find any value in the story of the crucifixion and resurrection? Whether or not it actually happened?
The symbol of the pagan cross was introduced to the instituter of the Roman church, Constantine, at the battle of Milvian bridge, by Sol Invictus, the sun god, in 312 AD. The vison was that Constantine was to go out an conquer under the sign of the cross. You will find the Conquistadors and Christian soldiers going to fight in Jerusalem, all carrying this cross, which also symbolizes the false gospel of grace/gross, in which "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4) but be changed from perishable to imperishable in a twinkling of an eye. Of course, that is also the gospel of the serpent. All that is required is for you to say Paul's magic prayer, believe in the cross/trinity, and you are saved. Of course, the "mark of the beast", whose authority came from the dragon (Revelation 13:4), is the cross.

Post Reply