The Trinity.

[Elijah John]

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

2) Does a person recieve the "Risen Christ" or does a person recieve the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

3) And if we consider that Jesus is (according to the Creed) is "eternally begotten of the Father" and had a pre-existance, doesn't that make three disctict Spirits in the Christian pantheon? How is that not three Gods?

4) Was Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, annointed of the Holy Spirit, and led by the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was already God, why would he need this?

In addition to the whole 3 in 1 "mystery" do these questions further illustrate that the doctrine of the Trinity causes more problems than it solves?

[Revelations won]

To all those who posted on this topic,

Thank you for your responses! Also to those who have not yet responded, I say we would like to hear from you too.

Elijah John's questions appear to be very well presented.

Are there any who can prove this doctrine to be scriptural and revealed from God?

Is the "Trinity" doctrine actually a new god, different from that witnessed in the Bible?

Is there ample support from the scriptures which show this "Trinity" doctrine to be incorrect?

Kind regards,
RW

[Eloi]

[Replying to Revelations won]
I have asked some Trinitarians if they would have believed in that doctrine if they would have been living in Israel times or in the First Century following Jesus and authentic Christians. My proposition to them is to visualize themselves in any of those times ... They said NO. My question is: if they think so, then why they do believe in that?

[Revelations won]

Dear Eloi,

That is a very interesting response you have received from those who have adhered to this unexplainable doctrine.

kind regards,
RW

[Eloi]

I have asked another question still waiting for an answer: if they consider the spirit of the Father another god-person, and Jesus another god-person in the triune god, why don't they put a fourth person in that compound god, the spirit of the god-son? Something like:

1) father
2) father's spirit
3) son
4) son's spirit

If some want to include a mother there would be two more. Can people add god-persons to a supposedly compound god, every time they want to, as they did in the Third Century?

[Wootah]

Are these questions actually problems inherent with the doctrine of the Trinity?

1) If the Father is Spirit, (and according to John he is) and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, doesn't that make two Spirits? Why the distinction between the two?

2) Does a person recieve the "Risen Christ" or does a person recieve the Holy Spirit when a person becomes a Christian? Who "knocks on the door" of our heart? Who empowers the Christian to do the will of God? Who leads and guides the believer?

3) And if we consider that Jesus is (according to the Creed) is "eternally begotten of the Father" and had a pre-existance, doesn't that make three disctict Spirits in the Christian pantheon? How is that not three Gods?

4) Was Jesus full of the Holy Spirit, annointed of the Holy Spirit, and led by the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was already God, why would he need this?

In addition to the whole 3 in 1 "mystery" do these questions further illustrate that the doctrine of the Trinity causes more problems than it solves?

No, the doctrine of the Trinity solves problems.

If Jesus is not God then:

* God used a created being to do His dirty work.
* a created being can pay for sins against God then God is not Holy and Righteous.
* The NT is blasphemy, have you seen it's focus on not God?

I really like this analogy for the Trinity.

The Father is the judge, the Son is the Athlete and the Spirit is the Coach.

Can the Judge judge unless he knows what is a perfect score?
Can the Athlete perform unless he knows what is a perfect score?
Can the Coach coach unless he knows what is a perfect score?

We need all three persons, even in one Being to have a game.

Your questions

1) God is Spirit.
2) Receives God.
3) God. If all three persons have the same will, how is that not one?
4) Anointed and Full.

This applies to every size of human organisation but lets pick a soccer team. The effectiveness of the 11 players depends on how well they operate as one. God being perfect, does this perfectly. We being image bearers attempt to do this.

Also in general, the triune nature of reality is everywhere.
solid, liquid, gas
x, y z of 3d coordinates
mind, body, soul
triangulation - in order to know where you are you need 3 points

[rstrats]

Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.

[Wootah]

I found this interesting.

https://scottmsullivan.com/a-proof-for- ... missed-it/

Now, here’s the interesting part: the word that Luke uses for “worship� is the Greek term “π�οσκυνήσαντες� (proskunesantes).

I know what you’re saying “John, this all Greek to me. Why is this important?� (Ha… I’m funny….right?)

Anyway, the root of the word for “worship� in Luke 24:52 is π�οσκυνέω (proskuneo) and unlike the other Gospels, Luke hardly uses this word at all.

In fact, he uses it in only one other passage in his whole Gospel.

The only other place that Luke employs this particular Greek term is in Luke 4:7-8 when Satan offer Christ every kingdom of the world under one condition:

“If you, then, will worship me (π�οσκυνήσῃς (proskynēsēs), it shall all be yours� and Jesus answered him � it is written, ‘you shall worship (Π�οσκυνήσεις Proskynēseis) the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve. (Deut. 4:5)�

Luke’s highly selective use of the term proskuneo in the early chapters of the Gospel give give it a definition so that it ought to be taken to say that God alone is worthy of proskuneo (Luke 4:8). But the disciples offer Jesus proskuneo and connects it with their worship in the Temple where they “glorify God.�

It seems like Luke thought Jesus was God.

[Elijah John]

Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.

Agreed. It seems an unstated assumption that the Holy Spirit is "part of" the Father. Or as Jesus indicated "the Spirit of your Father who speaks for you" to paraphrase.

Paul's apostolic salutations followed the formula of always identifying the Father as God, and Jesus as "our Lord Jesus Christ". There's a difference. They did not follow a Trinitarian formula.

[Revelations won]

Dear Wootah,

Your concluding statement may be closer to the mark than you think.

I think we should look at the clear view of the “Godhead� as three separate and distinct personages, for example:

John17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Ask yourself this question: How could the Son bring any glory to the Father unless he indeed had divine power given to him before he was born in mortality?

2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Also in verse 2 It is very clear that Christ testifies that God the Father had given him “power over all flesh�, including the power to give “eternal life�.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You should also observe in verse 3 Christ made a very powerful statement regarding the necessity to “KNOW thee the only true God and Jesus Christ�. Observe that he did not say we must have a mere belief in God and Jesus Christ. The word knowledge implies a much deeper and certain witness of the character of each person in the “Godhead�. For example: consider the personal witness and testimony which Peter received regarding Christ which was received only by revelation from God the Father relating to Jesus Christ station and identity as the Son of God.

4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Wootah, you may so note that in verse 5 is a most powerful witness of Christ’s Divinity as he testifies that he also possessed “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.� For it is clearly self evident that he was foreordained to this holy calling to be the savior and redeemer before the foundations of the world were even laid. This was also affirmed by Peter in the following:

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

I think the scriptures make it very clear that the “oneness� of the Godhead is a “oneness of unity and purpose� and not an incomprehensible oneness of body or spirit.

Wootah, consider all of the above and see if it constitutes sound doctrine and not just my opinion.

Kind regards,
RW

[PinSeeker]

I have asked some Trinitarians if they would have believed in that doctrine if they would have been living in Israel times or in the First Century following Jesus and authentic Christians. My proposition to them is to visualize themselves in any of those times ... They said NO. My question is: if they think so, then why they do believe in that?

As a tried and true believer in the triune Jehovah, my answer to this question would be, "I don't know." But I do feel absolutely sure that if I had lived in those times, assuming I was as familiar with Scripture as I am today, then, based on Genesis 1, I would absolutely have believed that God was a plurality of Persons. "our" and "us" is unmistakeable.

Grace and peace to all.