Matthew 16:28-29:

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Checkpoint
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Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This opening post comes from an exchange between Elijah John and me, Checkpoint.

The issue raised was the validity or otherwise of combining verses 28 and 29 of Matthew 16 as being a text in its proper context, or not.

Here now, without further ado, is the exchange.


Elijah John wrote
No interpretation, let's let the text speak for itself. What does this mean, in your opinion?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Checkpoint wrote
Here we go again, E.J.

Who chose what you now quote as being "the text"?

It is not a text but rather a portion of two texts joined together to make what is an artificial text.

It is the end of one text and the beginning of another text.

Both are therefore out of their own context.

"A text taken out of its context becomes a pretext for a prooftext".
Elijah John wrote
In my Bible verses 27 and 28 are in the same paragraph. Same paragraph, same subject. The way I read it Jesus was speaking of his 2nd coming in verse 27. How do you read it?

And in 28 he was referring to his contemporary listener, "some standing here".

Jesus still has not returned in judgement with his Father's angels. Are his contemporaries still alive?

Having said this, I see what you mean. I did a little research and yes, some versions have v 27 +28 in different paragraphs. Others, including the ASV, RSV, NRSV, NJB, have the two verses in the same paragraph.

But that would indeed make a world of difference. Was Jesus shifting topics here? Almost like stream of consciousness? Or not.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #31

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
You appear to have accepted without question that verses 27 and 28 form a valid text.

The phrase "some standing here" refers to those alive then, not to those who are alive at his return, which is yet future, isn;t it?
Then what were they supposed to see before they died, if not the 2nd coming of Christ?

Also, are you going to address the list of verses I provided which indicate that most if not all of the NT authors expected Christ's return in their own lifetimes?

Let's focus on just one for now. Hebrews 1.2:
In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son...
Those "last days" were over 2000 years ago. That is thousands of years, not days. Once again, plain reading not theological gymnastics.
What he said, "they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom".

No, I am not going to address your list of verses.

That list is your support for your own claim drawn from your own conclusions regarding the "text" issue.

I made this thread a specific "text" issue, so that is where my focus is.

You say the two verses form a valid text, and I say they are not a valid text, but instead are the end of one text joined with the start of another text.

Grace and peace.
So in effect you are ignoring the context and the fact that most if not all of the NT writers (including Matthew) expected the 2nd coming of Christ in the lifetime of the apostles.

That list of verses which you are ignoring is evidence for this context. The context that the culmination of history in the Apocalypse was expected way back then, and was not open-ended.
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-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #32

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 28 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, did my explanation of "some standing here will not die before they see [Jesus] coming in his Kingdom" make any sense to you? It makes a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #33

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 29 by Imprecise Interrupt]

I respectfully disagree with you.

Do you remember when Jesus said to the Pharisees, "The Kingdom of God is in your midst"? (Luke 17:21) Many people are taught that he meant that the Kingdom is in their hearts. But it was the Pharisees that Jesus was speaking to, and he had exposed them as hypocrites and sons of snakes already, so he couldn't have been saying that the Kingdom was inside them. He meant, quite clearly, that the Kingdom was standing there in the midst of the crowd, in the form of the representative of that Kingdom---The Christ, the Messiah, the one anointed to be the King of that Kingdom.

So not all Kingdom references were to be applied to the last days and his final coming.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #34

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to post 30 by John Human]

I disagree. The book of the Revelation, written by the Apostle John, was written to clue people in on the last days. People say that it was the last days to which YOU refer, 2,000 years ago. But this could not be the case, because Revelation tells us that the Devil will be "abyssed" for 1,000 years and then destroyed. It tells us that the earth and those on it will never mourn nor suffer again, and will live in peace. (Rev.20: 2, 6-10; 21:4) These are things that have not happened yet. So your theory doesn't hold up.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #35

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
You appear to have accepted without question that verses 27 and 28 form a valid text.

The phrase "some standing here" refers to those alive then, not to those who are alive at his return, which is yet future, isn;t it?
Then what were they supposed to see before they died, if not the 2nd coming of Christ?

Also, are you going to address the list of verses I provided which indicate that most if not all of the NT authors expected Christ's return in their own lifetimes?

Let's focus on just one for now. Hebrews 1.2:
In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son...
Those "last days" were over 2000 years ago. That is thousands of years, not days. Once again, plain reading not theological gymnastics.
What he said, "they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom".

No, I am not going to address your list of verses.

That list is your support for your own claim drawn from your own conclusions regarding the "text" issue.

I made this thread a specific "text" issue, so that is where my focus is.

You say the two verses form a valid text, and I say they are not a valid text, but instead are the end of one text joined with the start of another text.

Grace and peace.
So in effect you are ignoring the context and the fact that most if not all of the NT writers (including Matthew) expected the 2nd coming of Christ in the lifetime of the apostles.

That list of verses which you are ignoring is evidence for this context. The context that the culmination of history in the Apocalypse was expected way back then, and was not open-ended.
I am ignoring the context you presented, yes.

This is because it is predicated on your pre-interpretation of what verse 28 supposedly refers to, which thus attaches it to verse 27 to make these two into one text.

Verse 28 neither supports nor discounts the verses you quoted, because it is not about the return of Jesus at all.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #36

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 29 by Imprecise Interrupt]
There is no mention of a kingdom in the Transfiguration narrative. And what sense does it make for Jesus to say that not all of the disciples listening to him will be dead in the next six days? Plus considering that only three of the Apostles will see the Transfiguration, it makes even less sense.

But consider that both verses 27 (which is clearly about the judgment at the end of days) and verse 28 refer to the Son of Man and that virtually every other use of the word 'kingdom' in Matthew either explicitly or implicitly refers to the kingdom of heaven, it is very hard to see how verse 28 can be about anything other than the return of Jesus as described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
There is no mention of a kingdom in verse 27 either.

There is no mention of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 24.

The kingdom is both present and future.

Failure to recognise this or allow for it, will inevitably lead to trying to put a round peg into a square hole.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #37

Post by marco »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, did my explanation of "some standing here will not die before they see [Jesus] coming in his Kingdom" make any sense to you? It makes a lot of sense to me.
There's no problem understanding your take on the verses, onewithhim. For me the explanation is special pleading: the phrase "coming in his Kingdom" doesn't quite match the occasion, when the audience has dwindled.

The curious reference to some who will not taste death also seems a misfit when your interpretation is applied. To all the world it looks as if there is an obvious meaning, that ordinary people would understand, and an artificiality of limited application, which is yours.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #38

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, did my explanation of "some standing here will not die before they see [Jesus] coming in his Kingdom" make any sense to you? It makes a lot of sense to me.
Yes, it does make some sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is adding verse 28 to 27 as if they are talking about the same things.

And then cutting v28 from what immediately follows.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #39

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote:
onewithhim wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, did my explanation of "some standing here will not die before they see [Jesus] coming in his Kingdom" make any sense to you? It makes a lot of sense to me.
Yes, it does make some sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is adding verse 28 to 27 as if they are talking about the same things.

And then cutting v28 from what immediately follows.

Grace and peace to you.
So you think verse 16.28 belongs with chapter 17 verse 1? The "some standing here" refers to the witnesses to the Transfiguration and not to the 2nd coming of Christ?

Perhaps, but that grouping seems artificial to me, and ignores the fact that pretty much all of the NT authors (including Matthew) expected the Parousia in the lifetime of the Apostles. Again, "these last days" (Heb 1.2) the NT writers referred to, not years or thousands of years and counting.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Matthew 16:28-29:

Post #40

Post by Imprecise Interrupt »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 29 by Imprecise Interrupt]
There is no mention of a kingdom in the Transfiguration narrative. And what sense does it make for Jesus to say that not all of the disciples listening to him will be dead in the next six days? Plus considering that only three of the Apostles will see the Transfiguration, it makes even less sense.

But consider that both verses 27 (which is clearly about the judgment at the end of days) and verse 28 refer to the Son of Man and that virtually every other use of the word 'kingdom' in Matthew either explicitly or implicitly refers to the kingdom of heaven, it is very hard to see how verse 28 can be about anything other than the return of Jesus as described in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
There is no mention of a kingdom in verse 27 either.

There is no mention of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 24.

The kingdom is both present and future.

Failure to recognise this or allow for it, will inevitably lead to trying to put a round peg into a square hole.
If the kingdom was already present when Jesus spoke, what sense does it make to say that some of the disciples hearing Jesus will still be alive to see ‘the Son of Man coming in his kingdom’. That is clearly a future kingdom and unrelated to the Transfiguration, which mentions no kingdom.

Matthew 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�

The Son of Man (Mt16 27 and 28), who is the King (Mt 16 28), will come in glory with angels (Mt 16 27). Those who acted righteously are rewarded by the King according to what they have done. Those who did not act righteously are punished by the King according to what they have done. Mt 16 27 is very clearly about the King. Kings have kingdoms as Matthew frequently mentions. Mt 16 27 (there will be a judgment) and MT 16 28 (it is coming soon) are definitely part of the same thought.

Or did Jesus really have any reason to say that not all of the disciples will be dead in the next six days before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. But still only three of them will see the Transfiguration? And no future kingdom as Mt 16 28 clearly refers to. You skipped that part of the argument.

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