Would you still believe in God, if you found out that

[Elijah John]

Would you still believe in God if you discovered that Jesus is not God? If so, what form would that new found realization take? Would you then become a Jew? A Muslim? Or a free-lance, "heretical" Christian?, A Jehovah's Witness? Something else?

[William]

ttruscott: I think it is the devil who wants to steal our faith from us to extend the postponement of the judgement by switching our trust and hope in someone to a belief in a truth which is Satan's realm, ie, sophisticated logical argument. He can even use a truth to tell a lie: You will not die! yet he is the one who monstered the most holy old man on earth because YHWH mentioned him approvingly!

William: I think that accepting the possibility that anti-theists are agents of The Satan, brings with it connotations which might explain some things...
However, if those who hold the idea that some humans will be saved while many humans will suffer torment forever in the flames of hell, and they are correct about that, then it has to be argued that The Satan was not - in fact - lying that we would surely never die.

[onewithhim]

ttruscott: I think it is the devil who wants to steal our faith from us to extend the postponement of the judgement by switching our trust and hope in someone to a belief in a truth which is Satan's realm, ie, sophisticated logical argument. He can even use a truth to tell a lie: You will not die! yet he is the one who monstered the most holy old man on earth because YHWH mentioned him approvingly!

William: I think that accepting the possibility that anti-theists are agents of The Satan, brings with it connotations which might explain some things...
However, if those who hold the idea that some humans will be saved while many humans will suffer torment forever in the flames of hell, and they are correct about that, then it has to be argued that The Satan was not - in fact - lying that we would surely never die.

Exactly!!! You have brought out a logical thought that will squash any idea of a fiery hell that roasts people alive forever. The Bible says that it is DEATH that is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23). If people were allowed to live in a hell-fire, they would be ALIVE forever. That is diametrically opposed to the Bible's teaching. People have taken metaphor and made it into reality---in their minds.

[William]

[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]


ttruscott: I think it is the devil who wants to steal our faith from us to extend the postponement of the judgement by switching our trust and hope in someone to a belief in a truth which is Satan's realm, ie, sophisticated logical argument. He can even use a truth to tell a lie: You will not die! yet he is the one who monstered the most holy old man on earth because YHWH mentioned him approvingly!

William: I think that accepting the possibility that anti-theists are agents of The Satan, brings with it connotations which might explain some things...
However, if those who hold the idea that some humans will be saved while many humans will suffer torment forever in the flames of hell, and they are correct about that, then it has to be argued that The Satan was not - in fact - lying that we would surely never die.

onewithhim: Exactly!!! You have brought out a logical thought that will squash any idea of a fiery hell that roasts people alive forever. The Bible says that it is DEATH that is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23). If people were allowed to live in a hell-fire, they would be ALIVE forever. That is diametrically opposed to the Bible's teaching. People have taken metaphor and made it into reality---in their minds.

William: They have done that with the Garden story as well then.
From what I have gathered, the idea of hell was formulated through evil thinking and is not exempt from the list of things which are created in the Astral Realm through human imagination to be experienced as real.
Couple that with the idea that we are actually eternal beings, and yes - all sorts of 'hells' can be created and experienced as real by said beings, through imaginative belief+an environment which enables said beliefs to become instantly manifested realities in which the believer can experience.
It appears to be part of the reason Jesus came to Earth...because we eternal beings were unaware of the consequences of our beliefs, and he had to address that at the source.
Since then, far less eternal beings have ended up in self created hells, because of the counterpart 'heavens'. This has helped the overall process of reuniting a shattered vessel.

Re the metaphor Garden story, the eternal beings were told they would surely die, which is a metaphor for obscuring the true knowledge of ones self. In the case of the human characters, this amounted to making such a thing impossible to achieve in their position, while they processed their ability to grapple with ideas of 'good' and 'evil'.
They died to the ability to obtain the knowledge of who they truly were.

[RightReason]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Exactly!!! You have brought out a logical thought that will squash any idea of a fiery hell that roasts people alive forever. The Bible says that it is DEATH that is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23). If people were allowed to live in a hell-fire, they would be ALIVE forever. That is diametrically opposed to the Bible's teaching. People have taken metaphor and made it into reality---in their minds.

The evidence for eternal hell from the Church and the Bible is clear. The early Church believed and taught eternal hell. The historical record of early Church writings showing this is exactly what was believed and taught by the first Christians is plentiful. I can provide this if you like. And the evidence from Sacred Scripture is overwhelming . . .


Eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, “it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.� And in Revelation 14:11, we read: “And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.�

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few� (Matt. 7:13–14).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-hell-there-is
I can even show those who go into great detail regarding the actual words used in Scripture and what they mean and when one does that, it becomes silly to accept the JW interpretation. Here is more info . . .

It has often been noted that Jesus Himself spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. The following are the major scriptural evidences for both the existence of, and the everlasting duration of hell:


The Greek meaning of aionios (“eternal,� “everlasting�) is indisputable. It is used many times referring to eternal life in heaven. The same Greek word is also used to refer to eternal punishments (Mt 18:8, 25:41,46, Mk 3:29, 2 Thess 1:9, Heb 6:2, Jude 7). Even in one verse – Mt 25:46 – the word is used twice: once to describe heaven and once for hell. “Eternal punishment� means what it says. There is no way out of this without doing violence to Scripture.


The Jehovah’s Witnesses render “punishment� as “cutting-off� in their bogus New World Translation in an attempt to establish their doctrine of annihilationism, but this is impermissible. If one is “cut off,� that is a one-time event, not an eternal one. If I am cut off the phone with somebody, would anyone think to say I am “cut off eternally?� This word, kolasis, is defined in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament as “(eternal) punishment.�

Since it is preceded by aionios, then it is punishment which continues forever (not non-existence which continues indefinitely).

Likewise for the related Greek word aion, which is used throughout Revelation for eternity in heaven (e.g., 1:18, 4:9-10, 5:13-14, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 22:5), and also for eternal punishment (14:11, 20:10). Some attempt to argue that Revelation 20:10 only applies to the devil, but they must explain Revelation 20:15: “and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.� The “book of life� clearly has reference to human beings (cf. Rev 3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:11-14, 21:27). It is impossible to deny that fact.

Matthew 10:28: The word for “destroy� is apollumi, which means, according to Vine, “not extinction, but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being.� The other verses in which it appears make this meaning clear (Mt 10:6, Lk 15:6,9,24, Jn 18:9)

1 Corinthians 3:17: “Destroy� is the Greek, phthiro, meaning literally, “to waste away� (much like apollumi). When the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., the bricks were still there. it was not annihilated, but wasted. So shall it be with the wicked soul, which will be wasted or ruined, but not blotted out of existence. We see the meaning of phthiro clearly in every other instance of it in the NT (usu. “corrupt�), where in each case, the meaning is as I have said (1 Cor 15:33, 2 Cor 7:2, 11:3, Eph 4:22, Jude 10, Rev 19:2).

Acts 3:23 refers to simply being banished from the people of God, not annihilation. “Soul� just means a person here (cf. Deut 18:15-19, from which this passage is derived; see also Gen 1:24, 2:7,19, 1 Cor 15:45, Rev 16:3). We see this usage in English when someone says, “There was not a living soul there.�


Romans 1:32 and 6:21-2, James 1:15, 1 John 5:16-17 either refer to physical or spiritual death, neither of which means “annihilation.� The first is separation of body from soul, the second, separation of the soul from God. Philippians 1:28, 3:19, Hebrews 10:39: “Destruction� or “perdition� is the Greek apolia. Its meaning as “ruin� or “waste� is clearly seen in, e.g., Matthew 26:8 and Mark 14:4 (a waste of ointment). In Revelation 17:8, when it refers to the Beast, it states that the Beast is not wiped out of existence: “…They behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.�


Hebrews 10:27-31 must be understood in harmony with Hebrews 6:2, which speaks of “eternal judgment� (mentioned above in discussion of aionios). The only way to synthesize all the data presented here is to adopt the eternal hellfire view. The counter-arguments, on the other hand, almost always have simple contrary explanations.

2 Peter 2:1-21: In v.12, “utterly perish� is from the Greek kataphthiro. In the only other place in the NT where this word appears (2 Tim 3:8), it is translated as “corrupt� in KJV. If the annihilationist interpretation were applied to that verse, it would read, “…men of nonexistent minds…�


2 Peter 3:6-9: “Perish� is the Greek apollumi (see comment on Mt 10:28 above), so annihilation, as always, is not taught, by virtue of the simple meaning of the Greek word. Furthermore, in v.6, where it is said that the world “perished� in the flood, it is obvious that it was not annihilated, but wasted, consistent with the other interpretations above.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmst ... -hell.html

It became popular to start denying the existence of hell because it is easier for a church to convince her people they don’t have to worry about hell then it is to deal with the unpleasant truth of hell, but from the beginning was the teaching of eternal hell. It started to become trendy with groups like the Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons, to begin teaching this heresy. This of course, continues to stress Christ’s insistence on One, Holy, Authoritative, and Apostolic Church. He gave the keys to Peter, the first Pope, and gave His Church authority to safeguard Sacred Scripture, less we get the Charles Taze Russell’s of the world coming along and suggesting he has uncovered what Jesus really meant <sigh>

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 32 by onewithhim]


ttruscott: I think it is the devil who wants to steal our faith from us to extend the postponement of the judgement by switching our trust and hope in someone to a belief in a truth which is Satan's realm, ie, sophisticated logical argument. He can even use a truth to tell a lie: You will not die! yet he is the one who monstered the most holy old man on earth because YHWH mentioned him approvingly!

William: I think that accepting the possibility that anti-theists are agents of The Satan, brings with it connotations which might explain some things...
However, if those who hold the idea that some humans will be saved while many humans will suffer torment forever in the flames of hell, and they are correct about that, then it has to be argued that The Satan was not - in fact - lying that we would surely never die.

onewithhim: Exactly!!! You have brought out a logical thought that will squash any idea of a fiery hell that roasts people alive forever. The Bible says that it is DEATH that is the wages of sin (Romans 6:23). If people were allowed to live in a hell-fire, they would be ALIVE forever. That is diametrically opposed to the Bible's teaching. People have taken metaphor and made it into reality---in their minds.

William: They have done that with the Garden story as well then.
From what I have gathered, the idea of hell was formulated through evil thinking and is not exempt from the list of things which are created in the Astral Realm through human imagination to be experienced as real.
Couple that with the idea that we are actually eternal beings, and yes - all sorts of 'hells' can be created and experienced as real by said beings, through imaginative belief+an environment which enables said beliefs to become instantly manifested realities in which the believer can experience.
It appears to be part of the reason Jesus came to Earth...because we eternal beings were unaware of the consequences of our beliefs, and he had to address that at the source.

We were created eternal, to live forever, if our first parents obeyed Jehovah's simple commands, particularly the one where He said "don't touch that one tree or you'll die." Their living forever was contingent upon their obedience. They were completely aware of the consequences of their actions, as you can see by reading the account. (And why would God punish them for doing something in ignorance?) They knew exactly what they were doing---disobeying God. Eve believed Satan, accepting his idea that God was keeping something good from her, and the lie that she would not die. Adam was not fooled, but deliberately ate the fruit to show his independence from God. (I Timothy 2:14)

Jesus came to Earth to fulfill justice---an eye for an eye. Adam chose to turn against God and thus bring sin into the picture, which meant that he passed death along to all of his offspring (and we are familiar with DNA, aren't we?).Because the first perfect man caused the deaths of billions, the "last Adam," the perfect Jesus, would cause the salvation of billions. (I Corinthians 15:45; Romans 5:18)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 33 by William]

Tell me, why would God NOT want people to know "who they truly were"? That is just what Satan suggested to Eve. It wasn't true. I believe that Jehovah explained everything to Adam and Eve, and would've kept on enlightening them about many things if they had continued to be His friends.

[William]

onewithhim: We were created eternal, to live forever, if our first parents obeyed Jehovah's simple commands, particularly the one where He said "don't touch that one tree or you'll die."

William: One is at least required to be accurate if one is quoting another. I see no evidence of any such command not to touch that particular tree.
This is a favorite device of many - to misquote others and then comment on the misquote as if it is truth.
It does not pass the muster as far as good argument goes.
If any would like to discuss the story in detail with me, if they use quotes, they will have to use them correctly.

onewithhim: Their living forever was contingent upon their obedience.

William: The death that was promised, is metaphor. Once cannot promise Eternal Beings, actual death. One can provide eternal beings with a sense of death through specific experience of beginnings and endings which can provide a genuine enough experience of death as impermanent.
An Eternal Beings genuinely cannot actually die.

onewithhim: They were completely aware of the consequences of their actions, as you can see by reading the account.

William: Perhaps that is what you can 'see by reading the account' but I 'see' something else.

First up though, we must agree to go by the actual stories account.

onewithhim: (And why would God punish them for doing something in ignorance?)

William: It wasn't to punish ignorance - at least that is not how I 'see' the story...the punishment came with the knowledge, in that the lesson, then had to be learned.
We wanted to be GODs - so now we were going to get a glimpse on what that entailed going through.
Until then, we had no idea.

onewithhim: They knew exactly what they were doing---disobeying God.

William: Yes. But they were unaware of the consequences of The Knowledge. They did not know what death actually was, because they had never experienced death.
Death is The Wall. No one knows exactly what to expect on the other side, except to expect whatever they believe in,
Human beings naturally decided that they would like to know 'what the gods know" and the gods are eternally being, not knowing what death is.
That is what happened when Jesus encased Eternal Beings within the density of human flesh. They could not be contained therein forever.

onewithhim: Eve believed Satan, accepting his idea that God was keeping something good from her, and the lie that she would not die. Adam was not fooled, but deliberately ate the fruit to show his independence from God.

William: Jesus placed The Serpent in The Garden, for that purpose. He wanted them to wonder about what being like GOD would be like.
He wanted them to have the opportunity of choice.
The pair knew no fear, as it turned out.
Good candidates for learning the ropes on "how to be like GOD".

onewithhim: Jesus came to Earth to fulfill justice---an eye for an eye.

William: A necessary call on the part of Justice. After all, Jesus initiated everything, so it is only fair that he should participate in the clean-up phase of the operation...no doubt that was his plan from the moment he thought to create The Garden and place Eternal Beings into human forms.

onewithhim: Adam chose to turn against God and thus bring sin into the picture, which meant that he passed death along to all of his offspring (and we are familiar with DNA, aren't we?).

William: Adam chose to work things out on his own volition rather than told to 'obey' someones voice who was already claiming to be a GOD. Jesus accepted this as a good sign because he wanted Eternal Beings to choose the path of GODSHIP just as he had done.
Ideally, Jesus would have liked the autonomous Eternal Beings to immediately show signs of being content with their lot, but Jesus also knew that there was so much more on offer in The Fathers House which the pair were best off discovering for themselves.
Eternal Beings cannot be contained forever in 'things', be they physical or metaphysical in nature...


onewithhim: Because the first perfect man caused the deaths of billions, the "last Adam," the perfect Jesus, would cause the salvation of billions.

William: All is well that ends well then. Jesus has been in control of the whole shebang right from the go-get.

onewithhim: Tell me, why would God NOT want people to know "who they truly were"?

William: Jesus wanted them to be able to primarily work it out for themselves.

onewithhim: That is just what Satan suggested to Eve.

William: That is why The Serpent was created and placed in The Garden. To fudge the results in favor of them wanting to find out....to nudge the pair in that direction.
It is one thing to have obedient beings attentive to your every word, but they will never know what it is like to be a GOD.

onewithhim: It wasn't true.

William: That depends on what The Serpent actually was aware of. The Serpent did not lie, if The Serpent knew that the GODs possessed the knowledge of good and evil.
The Serpent did not lie, if The Serpent knew that this "becoming like GOD" wouldn't happen over night. "Rome was not built in a day", as the saying goes.
One could even argue that The Serpent did not lie, if The Serpent did not go into details.

onewithhim: I believe that Jehovah explained everything to Adam and Eve, and would've kept on enlightening them about many things if they had continued to be His friends.

William: The Father had little to do with what Jesus was engaged in, as it was Jesus' creation, not The Fathers.
The nature of The Fathers House is that he was able to give Jesus a 'mansion' in which to play in.
This universe is one of those mansions...specifically, the creation of Jesus.

This is a story of a boy named Jesus who had a Father with a house that had many mansions.
The boy will grow up to be just like his Father, knowing good from evil and having his whole creation understand what being a GOD is all about.

Some argue that Jesus isn't making the grade as a good example of a GOD, and others argue that he is, and has already done so.

I have no judgement either way on that particular argument. It is not my place to judge Jesus. I am simply trying to understand his creation in terms a GOD would understand his creation.

To do that, I have to know 'what a GOD is" and "How a GOD 'sees' things."

[onewithhim]

onewithhim: We were created eternal, to live forever, if our first parents obeyed Jehovah's simple commands, particularly the one where He said "don't touch that one tree or you'll die."

William: One is at least required to be accurate if one is quoting another. I see no evidence of any such command not to touch that particular tree.
This is a favorite device of many - to misquote others and then comment on the misquote as if it is truth.
It does not pass the muster as far as good argument goes.
If any would like to discuss the story in detail with me, if they use quotes, they will have to use them correctly.

Please, how is this incorrect?

"Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it. Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: 'From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.'" (Genesis 2:15-17)

[William]

William: One is at least required to be accurate if one is quoting another. I see no evidence of any such command not to touch that particular tree.
This is a favorite device of many - to misquote others and then comment on the misquote as if it is truth.
It does not pass the muster as far as good argument goes.
If any would like to discuss the story in detail with me, if they use quotes, they will have to use them correctly.

onewithhim: Please, how is this incorrect?

Genesis: "Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it. Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: 'From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.'"

William: Well - you wrote this;


onewithhim: We were created eternal, to live forever, if our first parents obeyed Jehovah's simple commands, particularly the one where He said "don't touch that one tree or you'll die."


William: Where you wrote;

onewithhim: "don't touch that one tree or you'll die."

William: You added something to the script which isn't there.
You added words and 'placed these in the mouth of Jehovah'. Clearly the story does not say that at all.

[polonius]

Would you still believe in God if you discovered that Jesus is not God? If so, what form would that new found realization take? Would you then become a Jew? A Muslim? Or a free-lance, "heretical" Christian?, A Jehovah's Witness? Something else?

RESPONSE: A correct and honest historian.