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Replying to post 38 by Overcomer]
Barry Webb, in his commentary says that the king is “a representative figure, the embodiment of that worldly arrogance that defies God and tramples others in its lust for power� (The Message of Isaiah, InterVarsity Press, 1996, p. 83). So it isn’t merely for that time and those people. As Webb notes, it refers to all those down through history who commit crimes against humanity. He describes how they end up in Sheol.
And yet, Mr. Webb is pointing out that the author is using figurative speech. To embody worldly arrogance is to point out that it isn't literally anyone at all.
J. A. Motyer, in his commentary, says it expresses several Old Testament truths about the dead. First and foremost is the fact that they are alive,
I find it amazing how someone can come to the conclusion that it is some sort of obvious fact that those who are dead are actually alive. Where do people come up with this stuff?
meaning that “in the Bible, death is never a termination, but a change of place and state with continuity of personal identity� (The Prophecy of Isaiah, InterVarsity Press, 1993, p. 143).
Okay, then by this logic we can safely assume that a dead corpse is never a termination point, but a change of place and state with continuity of personal identity? Well we can see that the body changes its location from above the ground to below; check, and it's still the same body that was always used to identify the person it belonged to; check. Therefore the truth is that it must then be alive. I don't think so.
There are other Scripture passages that speak to the ongoing existence of one’s soul after physical death.
We can say the same thing for the dead body. It still exists, right? We can see it, smell it, hear it bubbling and gurgling in the hot sun, right? No doubt about it, it's still there. It still exists, and these scholars must logically believe that it's still alive as well, right? If not, then why the double standard?
For example, there is Rev. 6:10 in which the martyrs cry out to God, saying, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?�
Yep, and Genesis has the same sort of thing happen when Abel's blood cries out to God as well. So we can safely assume that Abel's blood was alive and could cry out just like a bunch of dead martyrs.
Then there is the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. Some people consider it a parable, but I don’t. Jesus never names anyone in his parables and uses general examples for all to relate to.
He uses the name of Lazarus in this parable so we have at least one parable where he uses a name. There is no rule that prohibits one from using names in parables. Moreover, names have meanings that help one to understand the message of the parable. Of course this isn't going to work if one has already decided that it can't be a parable.
Even if it were a parable, Jesus never told fanciful stories, that is, stories in places with no correlation to real people and real places.
He never told fanciful stories? Huh? Oh so telling everyone that he would go to Jerusalem to suffer and die, and then rise from the dead three days later isn't fanciful at all; got it.
Here's another one, the Prodigal Son is extremely fanciful in that for a father to run after a son who has asked for his inheritance only to squander it, is not just fanciful, it's scandalous.
Here's another one: A man is going to hold a feast so he sends out invitations, buut his friends all can't make it so what does he do? He sends his servents into the streets to ask perfect strangers to come to his feast. Yeah, that's something we all hear about all the time, right?
Oh, wait, here's yet another one: A man goes out and hires people to work for him . Then a few hours later, he goes out again and hires a few more people. Then a few hours later he hires some more people. Finally an hour before quitting time, he hires some more people. When it comes time to pay his laborers, he pays them all the same wage they all agreed upon. Yeah, real people do that sort of thing all the time.
So he didn't make up the existence of a place where spirits went following death.
He didn't have to as this doctrine was brought back from the Babylonian captivity. Jesus is condemning the Pharisees for their hypocrisy. This is quite evident if one looks at the structure of the whole passage. He is using their own doctrines against them in this parable. The rich man represents the Pharisees while Lazarus represents the gentile world who Israel was supposed to help by manifesting God's law, but has instead taken God's oracles and hoarded them to themselves. Lazarus is a contraction of Eliezar which means "Whom God helps", and that is just exactly what happened when Israel rejected the gospel message. They were left "desolate" while the gospel message went out to the gentile world.
The Pharisees taught that people were paire in life and also in death, and after one died they went to one of three places: 1. Paradise; 2. Under the throne of Judgement; and 3. The bosom of Abraham. When someone died it was common to hear them say, "today he rests in the bosom of Abraham".
And Peter tells us that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18, 19),
No, Peter doesn't use any word for "preach". The most common would be evangelizo, but instead he uses a word that has nothing to do with the content of what is proclaimed, but the manner of what is proclaimed.
... a passage which refers to Jesus descending to Sheol to show those who had died bodily that he had fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah.
And yet, there is nothing in this passage to suggest any such thing. Instead, he is pointing out a particular time just prior to the flood.
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
Perhaps it would benefit us to look at Peter's reference.
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
So we see that it isn't the spirits of men, but the sons of God who are violating the boundaries God has set. How do we know this? Because this is explicitly stated in Jude 6:
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Note that the word is "angels" who didn't stay within the boundaries of their "habitation" (Gr. 'oiketerion"). This is the same word Paul uses in 2 Cor. 5:2 where he states:
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house {oiketerion} which is from heaven:
So Paul is pointing out that we groan in our physical bodies for our spiritual bodies. This is the opposite of what happened in Genesis. The sons of God left their spiritual bodies and put on physical bodies to reproduce with humanity.
Note how we're comparing apples to apples as he also includes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Pet. 2:3-6
And then there is Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).
That's not what it says in the Greek. In verse 6, he points out that while we are in our physical body, we are absent from the Lord, but it doesn't then follow that leaving our body immediately places us in the presence of the Lord. You already have supplied your own interpretation to Jesus' parable which contradicts this in that Lazarus wasn't present with the Lord, but instead he was in the bosom of Abraham.
In verse 8, Paul doesn't equate being absent from the body with being present with the Lord, but instead has the conjunction "and" (Greek: "kai"). We should be able to note the difference in meaning between our desire to be absent from work and at home watching football verses this idea that to be absent from work is to be at home watching football. The former is what Paul wrote. This is what most translators note and correctly use:
New International Version
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
English Standard Version
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Berean Study Bible
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Berean Literal Bible
Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
New American Standard Bible
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
King James Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Christian Standard Bible
In fact, we are confident, and we would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Contemporary English Version
We should be cheerful, because we would rather leave these bodies and be at home with the Lord.
Good News Translation
We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.
International Standard Version
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.
NET Bible
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
New Heart English Bible
We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.
New American Standard 1977
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Jubilee Bible 2000
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
King James 2000 Bible
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.
World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
