A house divided?

[bernee51]

Whether there is a 'true christian' denomination has been discussed elswhere.

However, in Matthew 12:25, Jesus is reported to have said: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." (KJV)

Is this an absolute principle and does this principle apply without exception? If so, what does that say about Christianity? Certainly it can be demonstrated by glancing at a roster of various denominations and sects within christianity that it can be said to be a ‘house divided against itself’.

Even in the microcosm of this forum, christian theists rarely find themselves in agreement on all issues, and any specific church’s position can vary on important issues according to whom you ask.

With this in mind, and considering the absolute nature of the principle ascribed to Jesus in Matthew 12:25, what does this say about Christianity as a whole?

[melikio]

There was a mission done by YWAM a good number of years ago now where a group of young people went around the middle eastern countries appologising for the terrible atrocities and needless slaughter done during the crusades.

It touched the hearts of thousands and opened many eyes to the real message of Jesus which was not proud but rather gave meaning to the words humility and love by their actions not just by their words. The fact that westerners travelled to their nations to say sorry said more about the love of Jesus than any sermon could ever do.

Tell me I am foolish to say sorry all you like. Meaningless? No, far from it.

I will agree that hearts can be touched by others in reconciliation. And it is the PROCESS of reconciliation that makes the difference (which is often an act of love).

Do you think that the Government issuing an apology for chattel "slavery" here in America would mean anything, if not accompanied by the VERY REAL reforms of those who govern as well as the nation's citizens?

I tell you the TRUTH... an apology is as empty as the cold vacuum of space, unless something meaningful (humanizing) is represented by it.

In this world, MANY a meaningless getsture (or word) has been offered, in an effort to right past wrongs, or pacify certain groups of people concerning the same. And I would further contend, that it is the (sincere) "intent" of those who would seek reconciliation that leads to healing, rather than the lip-service that is typically represented by any mere "apology".

In other words, if someone can't SHOW (somehow) that they mean what they say, then those "words" are about "worthless" (in most cases); and everyone who would seek forgiveness via some apology, would do well to be prepared to act (as much as it would be possible) in accordance with any statements they would decide to submit.

-Mel-

[Sleepy]

In other words, if someone can't SHOW (somehow) that they mean what they say, then those "words" are about "worthless" (in most cases); and everyone who would seek forgiveness via some apology, would do well to be prepared to act (as much as it would be possible) in accordance with any statements they would decide to submit.

In this case, your own words in this very paragraph are worthless because you cannot act in accordance to what you mean by them in this very statement. You have just been slapped by the law of non-contradiction. Now I think you would do well to step away from this point before it utterly self destructs.

I am sorry, which is why I said sorry, no go preach at someone who will buy your logic, I don't because it is flawed. I seriously cannot believe that you are asking me to display how sorry I am to someone I cannot meet. If I were you I would walk away and think long and hard about why you are preaching at someone over this.

Remember this topic is called 'A House Divided' - I guess you just proved that point by telling a Christian off for being sorry for the sins of other Christians.

[melikio]

In this case, your own words in this very paragraph are worthless because you cannot act in accordance to what you mean by them in this very statement.

Why can't people SHOW that they mean what they say? (Or try.)
Words are a dime a dozen; and I'm not trying to sell you any apology here, you are very free to reject my views.

You have just been slapped by the law of non-contradiction. Now I think you would do well to step away from this point before it utterly self destructs.

I haven't been "slapped" by anything, you only perceive that is the case. The practical reality, is (and remains) that "words", are not (and likely never will be necessarily enough, when it comes to "apologies" and the intrinsic value of them. Words are cheap. (It's a "101" kind of concept.)

I am sorry, which is why I said sorry, no go preach at someone who will buy your logic, I don't because it is flawed.

I'm not doubting that you are sincere, I simply cannot verify your sincerity from where I sit (and you cannot prove it from where you are, not using just words). I hold firmly to my contention, that apologies have limited value, unless they are backed by certain "actions".

I seriously cannot believe that you are asking me to display how sorry I am to someone I cannot meet.

I seriously cannot believe that you would apologize (by proxy) for an offense that you likely had little or nothing to do anything with. There is little real meaning in that.

I can understand you saying that you have compassion for wrongs suffered, but I don't see how you can apologize for an offense which isn't yours to apologize for.

If I were you I would walk away and think long and hard about why you are preaching at someone over this.

I thought about it LONG/HARD before I ever saw your post. And no, I'm not going to PUSH this AT you; I'm merely sharing what I've learned to be true in this very real world. As I implied above, I cannot prove/disprove what you "feel" for the wrongs others have suffered, but you cannot take the "guilt" or "offenses" of others onto yourself. Jesus could do that "spiritually", but we (humans) aren't Jesus.

Remember this topic is called 'A House Divided'

Yep. People disagree; even "Christians". But that really doesn't mean we have to be against one another, just because we DO NOT agree with everything in the same ways. You can hold the view you do, and I would never attack you for it; you can/will believe what suits you (ultimately). Still, we don't live in heaven (or a fantasy world) where there are no alternate views, concepts or perceptions of reality. That is why we learn to forgive (but not necessarily forget).

I guess you just proved that point by telling a Christian off for being sorry for the sins of other Christians.

I still don't see how you can apologize for the "transgressions" of other people. How do you support the idea/concept that YOU can do this? BTW, "Christians" don't get a free pass from other Chrstians (to not be disagreed with). If you say something that is questionable, why should another person not address what you've said???

And I'm not trying to put you "off"; just giving you a very realistic perspective to consider. I don't expect to change your mind, I'm just sharing/illuminating the fact that we disagree about the "apology" thing.

-Mel-

[melikio]

Even in the microcosm of this forum, christian theists rarely find themselves in agreement on all issues, and any specific church’s position can vary on important issues according to whom you ask.

This is an excellent point; period. While I've seen many Christians in agreement on many things, it is simply a fact of living in this reality, that many DO DISAGREE about many things.

And for someone to teach that the minds of "Christians" must be "Borg-like" (Star Trek) copies or clones of one another, is so very unrealistic. Sure, that seemingly makes things easier for certain groups, but I can't see how that's the best thing for each individual believer.

Love is what brings us together (at all). Sometimes, it NOT that we all agree, but that out of caring and compassion TRY to find points of reconciliation between one another.

-Mel-

[Sleepy]

I would advise you to re-read the apiology I made very carefully, each word is chosen specifically. Take careful note of the words... 'for what it is worth'...

The context of the apology is such that words have caused harm on this board where Christians have forgotten to show love and have instead wielded argument as some sort of theological brick. My evidential base for this is the sharp reaction atheists often give when they perceive a post to be overly judgemental on them.

So far, all I have done is give a 'for what it is worth' apology for the sins of other Christians who do not act like Christians and how badly that has reflected on Jesus.

In return I have had a so called Christian critcise this apology with the following words.

Worthless
Meaningless
Unbelievable
Unsupported

You contradict yourself by pampering to my feelings with phrases such as

I'm not doubting that you are sincere...You can hold the view you do, and I would never attack you for it

But this is precisely what you are doing. What you are telling me is that it is worthless, meaningless, pointless, unsupported because I cannot display in actions what you do not doubt is sincere in words?.

Ironically this is suggesting I am not acting in love in the same apology because it is love which brings the meaning.

Ask yourself this question. What possible motivation could I have for staunchly defending the sincerity of such my apology? Could it be that I lovingly mean it?

Solomon did not take his own wisdom , will you?

...
but that out of caring and compassion TRY to find points of reconciliation between one another.

It strikes me as dangerous ground when you consider

Words are a dime a dozen... Words are cheap

Words are not cheap, they can inspire (speeches), comfort (poetry), illuminate (education), create (stories)... and even reconcile (apologies)

You may believe this due to your life experience, but you have to face this fact. You are using words to communicate that words are meaningless, cheap and 'dime a dozen'. This is where you are being hit with the laws of non-contradiction. To illustrate the words in the phrase 'words are cheap' are cheap and hence the phrase cannot be taken seroiusly.

You can show love with your language. Do not think me naive, I am well aware that some will consider my words cheap (you are one of them) but believe me, I will not let this take away from the sincerity that I feel in the depth of my sorrow over Christians that talk God and do not show him by their tone, manner and love in language, motives, actions and relationships.

[melikio]

I would advise you to re-read the apiology I made very carefully, each word is chosen specifically. Take careful note of the words... 'for what it is worth'...

I re-read it several times, and have heard things like it before. It's not new, nor is my critique of it. What I've said about it has been understood and experienced practically by many.

The context of the apology is such that words have caused harm on this board where Christians have forgotten to show love and have instead wielded argument as some sort of theological brick.

Can you be certain that love was "forgotten" vs. being "witheld"? Can YOU apologize for the behavior of others? (Really?)

My evidential base for this is the sharp reaction atheists often give when they perceive a post to be overly judgemental on them.

I can sense you have FEELINGS for people, but I just don't see how you can "apologize" for the worngs of other "Christians". (How do you effectively do that? And how much can it REALLY mean for atheists who have been HAMMERED relentlessly by difficult Christian people?)

I'm a gay man. I would have to literally HOLD IN the laughter that would come to me, if some "Christian" tried to apologize for the things I've seen come out of other "Christians" which have hurt and offended me over the course of my lifetime. On the other hand, I have been encouraged in forgiveness and reconciliation by other people who sympathize and empathize with what I've been through, but never has anyone "apologized" for all the "Christian-Jerks" I've had to endure; and I wouldn't expect such an apology to have any real meaning.

WHO can "apologize" (but Jesus) for what I've been through as a human being?

So far, all I have done is give a 'for what it is worth' apology for the sins of other Christians who do not act like Christians and how badly that has reflected on Jesus.

Geez. You CAN express concern and care for the effects of wrongdoings suffered, but you CANNOT "apologize" (and have it be meaningful) for the wrongdoings performed by others. A promise or proven intention to promote reconciliation has more meaning than that (apology) ever will.

In return I have had a so called Christian critcise this apology with the following words.

Ok, then I'm not a "Christian" then. For now, consider me a "realist"; I don't have to always be agreeable, to be a fellow believer.

You can only apologize for wrong that YOU have done or for good things you have personally neglected to DO; you cannot (by proxy) effectively offer any deeply meaningful apology for things you had nothing to do with personally (you don't necessarily have that "authority", even as a "Christian"); only Jesus can do that. That is what is meant by "propitiation", which is what you seem to have confused with the concept of an "apology". People are looking for propitiation, not words full of promises.

More on "propitiation" here:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search? ... opitiation

Worthless
Meaningless
Unbelievable
Unsupported

Yep. Such are often the effects of apologies offered, where offenses are displaced by proxy. If I believe the concept you promote, then the apology of an 18 year old white person, should have meaning for all those affected by 400+ years of chattel slavery in this nation.

You contradict yourself by pampering to my feelings with phrases such as
Mel said: I'm not doubting that you are sincere...You can hold the view you do, and I would never attack you for it

You have that wrong, but perhaps your perception of what I said leaves you with the conclusion that you are being attacked. That was NOT a putdown; we just differ on certain points. Personally, I believe that you are still very free to believe and act as you have indicated. Just be aware that others will often disagree with you. Being a "Christian" or "feeling" for others doesn't give you the authority to take on the FAULTS of others. You can care, empathizeand promote goodwill, but you cannot typically offer a meaningful apology for the wrongs others have commited.

What you are telling me is that it is worthless, meaningless, pointless, unsupported because I cannot display in actions what you do not doubt is sincere in words?

It wasn't meant as a putdown, merely as criticism of what you believe the apology is worth. I'm not attacking your character, just offering my point of view upon why we differ in our thinking.

Ironically this is suggesting I am not acting in love in the same apology because it is love which brings the meaning.

How is the meaning most effectively COMMUNICATED? I don't think you should expect a mere "apology" to convey the kind of goodwill you seem to imagine it does. Actions DO speak louder and more effectively than mere words.

Ask yourself this question. What possible motivation could I have for staunchly defending the sincerity of such my apology? Could it be that I lovingly mean it?

I have already told you, that it's not the sincerity of what you offer from your "heart" that I question; not at all. I don't KNOW you one iota. What I have addressed is the concept of what apologies are often worth, if not backed by "action".

Mel said: ...but that out of caring and compassion TRY to find points of reconciliation between one another.

And "apology" is NOT necessarily EQUAL to this.

It strikes me as dangerous ground when you consider

Mel said: Words are a dime a dozen... Words are cheap

Who is NOT aware of this?! People can EASILY say what others want to hear (or what they "believe" others want to hear). The world contains an abundance of that (verbal) B.S. (really); from little white-lies to politcal promises. If people aren't taking their words/faith and putting them into ACTION, then they aren't doing much that is verifiable or worthwhile.

Words are not cheap, they can inspire (speeches), comfort (poetry), illuminate (education), create (stories)... and even reconcile (apologies)

They are so-often and typically LESS EFFECTIVE than actions (by comparison), and people know that INTUITIVELY.

You may believe this due to your life experience, but you have to face this fact. You are using words to communicate that words are meaningless, cheap and 'dime a dozen'. This is where you are being hit with the laws of non-contradiction. To illustrate the words in the phrase 'words are cheap' are cheap and hence the phrase cannot be taken seroiusly.

Of course, there is a LIMIT to the real value of things said/proclaimed. And that is where I must leave certain things to the providence of God. I cannot make you see my view, my experiences and my absolute reasoning for criticizing what you have said. I'm not even saying I have ALL that needs to be said or understood on the matter; I'm mostly sharing the reasons why I differ with your views.

You can show love with your language.

I know, and I have. But that is NO COMPARISON to what I have DONE to prove love by actions.

Do not think me naive, I am well aware that some will consider my words cheap (you are one of them) but believe me, I will not let this take away from the sincerity that I feel in the depth of my sorrow over Christians that talk God and do not show him by their tone, manner and love in language, motives, actions and relationships.

I don't judge your character, I accept you as a person; I also accept that we differ (where the value of spoken "apologies" are concerned). Big deal; God will teach us all, in due time.

-Mel-

[Sleepy]

More meaningless apologies for you.

http://www.stonescryout.org/archives/20 ... s_lif.html

The reason I see an apology as perfectly valid from a Christian regarding other Christians is this. I see Christians as a single body, my brothers and sisters. When one part hurts the whole hurts, in the same way when one part sins we all carry that stain. Even if the apology carries next to no meaning, it still carries meaning and is thus far better than doing nothing. It is arrogant to suggest otherwise.

If nobody apologised for the sins of Christians we would be seen to passively regard them by outside observers. An apology is doing two things, firstly it is acknowledging that wrong has been done and making what efforts can be made to acknowledge that. Secondly it tries to show the respect that should have been afforded in the first place. You and I disagree on this calling my personal apology meaningless, well thanks. I guess I will have to endure your opinion, you feel it is not possible to apologise. Well I feel that is not a good start on the road of reconciliation but then I tend not to wave the Christian-Jerk tag around. History has countless examples of the healing brought by people who were willing to say sorry for the sins of other generations or fellow country men. The apology recognises the wrong and begins the healing process.

I consider Christians my brothers hence I feel I can at least provide an apology with some worth. You do not feel this is possible, perhaps because of Christians that condemn your lifestyle. Perhaps this is a protection mechanism but at the end of the day you are going to have to accept them as part of the same body as you and find the will to forgive them rather than regard them as 'Jerks'.

To this end, I apologise deeply to you for those Christians who have seen in you what they believe is sin and have chosen to condemn or even insult you. Even if their belief were true, the example of Jesus would be to have shown you love first not condemnation. This apology is deeply felt caused by the mourning in my heart that my Christian brothers and sisters lose sight of the love of Christ. Reject my apology if you will but please find it in your heart to forgive those who have done you wrong as this is the message of the Cross.

Reconciliation in love.

[melikio]

You do not feel this is possible, perhaps because of Christians that condemn your lifestyle.

No. It's not a "lifestyle". And that you call it that, is all the more reason why any apology you would make for what others have done, may not be perceived as YOU think it would.

By referring to homosexuality as a "lifestyle", you tell me that you don't really understand what you just apologized for. On the other hand, I understand the propitiation that Jesus provided literally makes things "right". Apologies aren't necessarily synonymous with "sacrifice".

If nobody apologised for the sins of Christians we would be seen to passively regard them by outside observers.

No. Only "God" can right the wrongs done in His name; and while that can be done THROUGH people, it's not just about "words" (as empty promises and certain shallow apologies tend to be).

An apology is doing two things, firstly it is acknowledging that wrong has been done and making what efforts can be made to acknowledge that.

It typically does the first thing, fine. But often enough with HUMAN BEINGS, there is little to no real follow-up. Most apologies are akin to broken promises; my experiences have shown me this more times than I could ever count. On the other hand, an apology has REAL meaning, when the other person's state of mind and condition of heart PROVE (through actions) that reconciliation is the TRUE intent. Are we supposed to TRUST an enemy; or become helpless before them on account of a mere "promise"??? I know there is a time for trust and everything else (under the sun), but accepting apologies with no amount of scrutiny, is simply unwise.

Secondly it tries to show the respect that should have been afforded in the first place.

It's better that people be PREPARED to SHOW respect, rather than promise respect. Apologies, opinions and promises SHOULD mean more than they typically do, but rarely are they as substantive as they seem to be.

You and I disagree on this calling my personal apology meaningless, well thanks.

I think you are a bit stuck on the word "meaningless". I really didn't mean to imply that your apologies was meaningless to you or others, but that it may not be worth as much as to others as you might hope/think it does. I'm certain that at times, your words have great WORTH to others, but I qualify that by pointing out that people have good and valid reasons for not accepting or seeing the value of reconciliation attempts initiated via WORDS ALONE.

I guess I will have to endure your opinion, you feel it is not possible to apologise.

You are making me laugh now. That is clearly not what I have said nor implied; my contention with you hinges upon the reality that apologies are often rendered meaningless, due to lack of something REAL to back it up. And I would further contend, that is near the CORE of problems related to those which have cause many to turn away from "Christianity" altogether. In the face of the very REAL effects of "Christians" and their actions, an apology is like a strand of cotton, trying to soak up a river of tears. Outside of a miracle where God's grace pours upon us all, words will not lead to the kind of "propitiation" you seem to relegate to the rendering of an "apology"; they just don't mean that much (really).

Well I feel that is not a good start on the road of reconciliation but then I tend not to wave the Christian-Jerk tag around.

Haven't met any? I have. It's not a flag I wave, it's sewn onto the shirts of many who would cal themselves "Christian".

History has countless examples of the healing brought by people who were willing to say sorry for the sins of other generations or fellow country men. The apology recognises the wrong and begins the healing process.

Sometimes words are a catalysts for good things. But all too often, more often than not, the actual meaning of words are like vapor. And as I've said many times already, ACTIONS are the substance that most people have viewed as being REAL evidence of the types of change, which words only provide an "image" of.

I consider Christians my brothers hence I feel I can at least provide an apology with some worth.

I have MANY blood siblings. We have established our LOVE via actions; our character, moral worth and concern for one another has already been proven. There is not one apology that is taken lightly within my family. On the other hand, there are those who are NOT "true" to their word; we don't know who they are unless they have proven themselves; why would you TRUST what they have promised?

You do not feel this is possible, perhaps because of Christians that condemn your lifestyle.

No, a heartfelt, meaningful apology is definitely possible, I just don't see them as being abundant in this world. Actions speak for themselves, the vast majority of the time (not always).

Perhaps this is a protection mechanism but at the end of the day you are going to have to accept them as part of the same body as you and find the will to forgive them rather than regard them as 'Jerks'.

You misunderstand: That isn't just about "homosexuality". I've been around and encountered Christians ALL OF MY LIFE. I know they aren't perfect people. That has not stopped me from loving them. And the love that Christ has given me extends beyond the FAULTS of others who aren't "Christian" or "gay".

To this end, I apologise deeply to you for those Christians who have seen in you what they believe is sin and have chosen to condemn or even insult you.

Just STOP apologising; make a difference with what is in your span of real control to make the lives of those who are downtrodden BETTER than they have been.

Even if their belief were true, the example of Jesus would be to have shown you love first not condemnation.

No one should have to wait around for scraps, when Jesus has provided them with a feast.

This apology is deeply felt caused by the mourning in my heart that my Christian brothers and sisters lose sight of the love of Christ.

No, the apology DOESN'T MATTER; it is not what has meaning in this case. What has true promise and meaning, is whatever it is within you, that will seek (actively) to help decrease the suffering caused by the wrongdoing of others. Your words are not so substantial, really.

Reject my apology if you will but please find it in your heart to forgive those who have done you wrong as this is the message of the Cross.

You are going to have the hardest time in this life, if you cannot accept that "words" have limited meaning, when it comes to true reconciliation or propitiation. People tend to ascribe limited value to words, and actions almost always speak more loudly and effectively.

Reconciliation in love.

In the (John 3:16) love of Jesus, that is indeed possible.

-Mel-

[Sleepy]

I believe that you are still very free to believe and act as you have indicated.

Just STOP apologising

You seem very upset, God Bless you and hold you.

[melikio]

You seem very upset, God Bless you and hold you.

No, I'm not upset.

I merely disagree (fairly strongly) with your view of what a "verbal" or "written" apology's worth can/may actually be.

I'm happy and peaceful over here.

Thanks for the blessings.

Peace to you in Christ,

-Mel-