How do they KNOW?

[Elijah John]

There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.

For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?

Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 69 by Waterfall]

Okay, no worries. Just don't drink too much...

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 68 by PinSeeker]

You didn't answer my question.

That must be because I do not think the way you do.

I just think that I have to do my best.

Why does who not agree, Waterfall?

Mark and Matt.

You don't have to be an astronomer or an astrophysicist; we have people who have dedicated their lives to that. Any astronomer or astrophysicist would be happy to verify to you that we do not have four suns.

That is all I am asking for. That they read the description and the relevant information and think about it. Is it possible to create a universe this way? Does our universe look like that? Could they be wrong about some things?

Sure. The Bible (God) says it (through Moses), so it's true. I'm saying, Waterfall, that if you want to believe that the universe was created 6,000 years ago, I have no problem with that, as long as you believe that God did it. I also don't have any real problem with it if you want to believe God created the universe millions or billions of years ago, as long as you believe God did it. God created the universe and all we see, and He created it all "good," even "very good." That's the main point of Genesis 1 and 2.

I think God created the universe. Everybody thinks that (at least theist does). But what about this world of sin and death? I am not so sure God did it. You point to genesis 1 and 2. In the first account animals are created before human beings and in the second account animals are created after human beings? What did God do? Maybe God connected a spirit to some fallen angels creation? When I look at our ancesters they do not seem to have been created by God? We seem to have gone from monkey like beings to human beings = there seems to have been a development? From the first human beings (how did they look like?) and to our days human beings.

Having said that, especially in view of what happened next and has been the state of all mankind ever since then, I redirect you to the question I posed to you that you did not answer. It is good that you admit you are sinful and that you are in need of forgiveness. The question, again, is, "Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be -- the wages of sin, if you will?"

If I have something to learn on this planet then God can just let me be born again. I have no problem with that.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 68 by PinSeeker]

You didn't answer my question.

That must be because I do not think the way you do.

I don't think so. I asked you a simple question and you really kind of... well, at least "beat around the bush," and totally avoided the question I asked. And then I asked it again in my last post, and you still haven't answered it.

I just think that I have to do my best.

Well, experientially speaking, you do. We all do. But spiritually speaking, the Bible tells us that whatever we do is tainted with sin and therefore not good enough. We can't earn our salvation.

Why does who not agree, Waterfall?

Mark and Matt.

Ah, Mark and Matthew. Okay, tell me where you think they disagree. Let's talk about it.

Is it possible to create a universe this way?

I have answered this question several times. Yes, I guess God could have created it a number of different ways, but He created it the way we see it.

Does our universe look like that?

No. I'm not an astronomer or astrophysicist either, but I can certainly see that we do not have four suns.

Could they be wrong about some things?

Sure they could, but not about the fact that we don't have four suns. You yourself can verify that by going outside (during the daytime) and looking up. An astronomy or astrophysics degree is not needed to be able to do that; only a pair of eyes -- or even one eye -- is needed. Or an ear to hear someone who can see.

I think God created the universe.

Fabulous.

But what about this world of sin and death? I am not so sure God did it.

God created the world good. Adam brought sin and death into it, not God. So God set out to redeem the world unto Himself, to make it right again. And He will.

You point to genesis 1 and 2. In the first account animals are created before human beings and in the second account animals are created after human beings?

There are not "two accounts." Genesis 2 is not a different account of creation, but rather an expansion of, and comment upon, the events of Day Six of creation. When Genesis 2:19 states “The LORD God formed every beast of the field ...,� the Hebrew verb can be translated as a pluperfect. A better translation would be “Now the LORD God had formed ...,� which is how it is rendered in both the New International Version (NIV) and the English Standard Version (ESV). When read as a pluperfect, there is no contradiction between the order of creation. God made animals first, then people. Correctly read, Genesis 2 does not contradict the order given in Genesis 1.

When I look at our ancesters they do not seem to have been created by God? We seem to have gone from monkey like beings to human beings = there seems to have been a development? From the first human beings (how did they look like?) and to our days human beings.

Similarity does not necessarily indicate progression. We have plenty of evidence for, say, neanderthals. All that is well and good. Who's to say there were not other humans in the world who look pretty much exactly like we do today?

Having said that, especially in view of what happened next and has been the state of all mankind ever since then, I redirect you to the question I posed to you that you did not answer. It is good that you admit you are sinful and that you are in need of forgiveness. The question, again, is, "Do you think it's necessary that someone pay for your sins? If so, what would the remuneration be -- the wages of sin, if you will?"

If I have something to learn on this planet then God can just let me be born again. I have no problem with that.

See? Still you are avoiding the question. As for being born again, perhaps you already are but just don't realize it yet. You don't have to be accountable to me in any way, but I urge you to do the following things:

• * Believe in Christ Jesus as your Savior, that He died for your sins and thus paid the wages of sin on your behalf, thereby redeeming you to God.
  
  * Repent of your sin.
  
  * Read the Bible, not just to know about God and about Jesus, but to really know God and know Jesus and to grow in their grace.
  
  * Connect and stay connected with a Gospel-believing body of people so that you may be helped and grow in the grace of God and Jesus with them, that you may be part of the Body of Christ.

Grace and peace to you, Waterfall.

[brianbbs67]

I would add:

https://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/12-13.htm

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 72 by PinSeeker]

Well, experientially speaking, you do. We all do. But spiritually speaking, the Bible tells us that whatever we do is tainted with sin and therefore not good enough. We can't earn our salvation.

But we can ask for forgiveness. Maybe we can't be perfect and sinless in this world, but I think God can live with that...after all...we are not God. So I will just do my best. If we all do our best then the world will become a better place.

Ah, Mark and Matthew. Okay, tell me where you think they disagree. Let's talk about it.

Mark:

20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

Matt:

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

What did the disciples see? In Matt. it seems like they are seing the fig tree wither right after Jesus is cursing it? This is not the case in Mark. There is also this...did it happen before or after the cleansing of the temple?

Why do they not agree on what happent?

Sure they could, but not about the fact that we don't have four suns. You yourself can verify that by going outside (during the daytime) and looking up. An astronomy or astrophysics degree is not needed to be able to do that; only a pair of eyes -- or even one eye -- is needed. Or an ear to hear someone who can see.

But the book is not claming what you are saying, so...again...it is not talking about four suns around the earth. This is the big picture of the universe:

http://vandrermotlyset.net/Om%20univers ... l%204.html

It is just an amateur that has made this animation. And as I have said...I have my doubt about this picture. But I am not the right one to say it is not true. As you say God can create the universe how "he" likes...but do impossible things...well...I do not think so.

God created the world good. Adam brought sin and death into it, not God. So God set out to redeem the world unto Himself, to make it right again. And He will.

What is a good world? In this book something went wrong to:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/

Nothing became like God wanted. You are putting the "blame" on human beings and this book is putting the "blame" on some fallen angels.

Maybe the truth is something else? Sometimes I think God is me, but I am not God. The only thing I know is that I have to do my best. I have been a child way to long. Now I have to grow up and not be a problem to anyone. Yes...I have done my share of "stupid" things and I am sorry for that.

I like to listen to this man:



But I also like to drink beers I am a strange human being What do I want? Well...peace on earth...that would just be great. I to have many things to learn. How to think and behave? I fell like I am in a minefield...

Now I am drinking beers again and then I want to put some music on:



I am not saying others should drink...if they lose controll over themself, then it is problely not a good Idea, but I would like to overcome this, and is getting better and better of it (I think).

When I drink and write I say that to people, so they know.

Because sometimes I have gone crazy. And then I wake up to...well...stupid things. I do not want to wake up to stupid things. But why then drink? Well...that is a good question...have I already said stupid things? Why do we drink?

There are not "two accounts." Genesis 2 is not a different account of creation, but rather an expansion of, and comment upon, the events of Day Six of creation. When Genesis 2:19 states “The LORD God formed every beast of the field ...,� the Hebrew verb can be translated as a pluperfect. A better translation would be “Now the LORD God had formed ...,� which is how it is rendered in both the New International Version (NIV) and the English Standard Version (ESV). When read as a pluperfect, there is no contradiction between the order of creation. God made animals first, then people. Correctly read, Genesis 2 does not contradict the order given in Genesis 1.

Maybe there is something wrong with the danish translation, because here it says this:

V18 Gud Herren sagde: »Det er ikke godt, at mennesket er alene. Jeg vil skabe en hjælper, der svarer til ham.« V19 Så formede Gud Herren alle de vilde dyr og alle himlens fugle af jord, og han førte dem til mennesket for at se, hvad han ville kalde dem, og det, mennesket kaldte de levende væsener, blev deres navn...

I will give you a translation of this - in my words...V18 God said: It is not good that man is alone. I will create a helper that match him. V19 Then God created all the animals and lead them to man to see what he would call them, and what man callt the living creatures became their names...

Similarity does not necessarily indicate progression. We have plenty of evidence for, say, neanderthals. All that is well and good. Who's to say there were not other humans in the world who look pretty much exactly like we do today?

The Hare Krishna movement has made me aware of this book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Archeology

I have not read it, so...

The last thing you are saying may be true in some sense...that I have been born again...because I have realized that I have to do my best. I still like to drink and listen to music:







Music is a powerfull instrument...

Now I am getting into some crazy things...and that reminds me of this:



There are some great people in the world:



But do we listen to them?

How can I make the world a better place?

I have been bless with parents who love me and will forgive me anything...but I have been a "wild" child that is for sure...not the best child of God. But I am waking up and now I just want to do my thing.

Best regard or namaste

[PinSeeker]

Maybe we can't be perfect and sinless in this world, but I think God can live with that...after all...we are not God. So I will just do my best. If we all do our best then the world will become a better place.

Being nice and doing your part to make the world a better place is all well and good, Waterfall. But we're really not talking about what is merely temporal, we're talking about the eternal.

So, even still, you avoid my question. I guess I understand why. The wages of sin is death, Waterfall. Unless you have a savior, Jesus, whose righteousness is then imputed to you, by God -- unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees -- God will not "be okay" with anything. His justice will not be compromised. For each person, omeone has to pay the wages of sin. The question is, will it be that person, or will it be Jesus? Who will satisfy God's justice, for you, Waterfall? Will it be you, or will it be Jesus? Will you put your faith in yourself? Or will you put it in Jesus?

Ah, Mark and Matthew. Okay, tell me where you think they disagree. Let's talk about it.

Mark:

20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

Matt:

18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

What did the disciples see? In Matt. it seems like they are seing the fig tree wither right after Jesus is cursing it? This is not the case in Mark. There is also this...did it happen before or after the cleansing of the temple?

First observe that Matthew does not say that the “cursing� of the fig tree was on the day following the cleansing of the temple.He simply says that it was “in the morning as he returned to the city� (21:18).Mark’s account makes it clear that the “morning� was Monday morning, following his visit on Sunday.Second, Matthew, for convenience sake, combines the “cursing of the tree� and the subsequent “discussion with the disciples,� without affirming that these events occurred on the same day.One must not read specificity into an account when it is not there.

Why do they not agree on what happent?

They don't disagree.

This is the big picture of the universe...

Oh, so it claims what no one knows. It claims to know exactly what the universe in its entirety looks like... Don't talk to me about this website or these people anymore, Waterfall. It's nuts. Not you; you're not nuts... But the website and all that "information" is nuts. I read about it; it all came about -- was dreamed up -- around 1920.

Read your Bible, Waterfall. Keep learning about Jesus. Repent of your sin; pray that God would give you new life in Jesus. Invite Jesus into your heart, and then live that way. Be a doer of the Word and not a mere hearer. Let God make you a better person by making you more like Jesus.

Best regard or namaste

The same to you, Waterfall. Grace and peace to you.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 75 by PinSeeker]

Being nice and doing your part to make the world a better place is all well and good, Waterfall. But we're really not talking about what is merely temporal, we're talking about the eternal.

So, even still, you avoid my question. I guess I understand why. The wages of sin is death, Waterfall. Unless you have a savior, Jesus, whose righteousness is then imputed to you, by God -- unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees -- God will not "be okay" with anything. His justice will not be compromised. For each person, omeone has to pay the wages of sin. The question is, will it be that person, or will it be Jesus? Who will satisfy God's justice, for you, Waterfall? Will it be you, or will it be Jesus? Will you put your faith in yourself? Or will you put it in Jesus?

I just think that I have to do my best. But I would like to understand your position better. To me this seems more just:

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-e03.htm

First observe that Matthew does not say that the “cursing� of the fig tree was on the day following the cleansing of the temple.He simply says that it was “in the morning as he returned to the city� (21:18).Mark’s account makes it clear that the “morning� was Monday morning, following his visit on Sunday.Second, Matthew, for convenience sake, combines the “cursing of the tree� and the subsequent “discussion with the disciples,� without affirming that these events occurred on the same day.One must not read specificity into an account when it is not there.

How do you read Matthew 21:17-18:

17 And He left them and went out of the city to Bethany, and spent the night there.
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.

To me it seems clear that it happent after the cleansing of the temple. Jesus is not on his way back to clean the temple because he has already done that. In Mark it happent before the cleansing of the temple. That is how I understand the text.

[PinSeeker]

I just think that I have to do my best.

If you putting your faith and trust in yourself, you will fall far short. You will let yourself down. We all would, were we to do that.

But I would like to understand your position better.

Okay, good. Read back over my posts. Read the Bible. Get into a Gospel-preaching church and surround yourself with believers. Above all, repent and believe on Christ.

To me this seems more just: http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-e03.htm

Well, it's not. There is no justice in that at all... it's just being really, really, really "nice," to the point of being a doormat. God is not a doormat.

To me it seems clear that it happent after the cleansing of the temple. Jesus is not on his way back to clean the temple because he has already done that. In Mark it happent before the cleansing of the temple. That is how I understand the text.

You can't really compare Matthew and Mark in the way you're trying to compare them. I understand that's how you read it. I explained earlier why that is incorrect.

Grace and peace to you, Waterfall.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to post 77 by PinSeeker]

If you putting your faith and trust in yourself, you will fall far short. You will let yourself down. We all would, were we to do that.

Do you think I would kill Jesus because he told me that I was not living a good life? It is not everybody who would kill Jesus. Not now and not then. If Jesus was born "today" I would sit at his feet and listen to him and ask questions.

Okay, good. Read back over my posts. Read the Bible. Get into a Gospel-preaching church and surround yourself with believers. Above all, repent and believe on Christ.

I have tried to read the Bible, but I got tired in my head and put it away. Maybe I will give it one more try...find me a church with a Bible class. To me all Jesus is saying is repent and live a good life. I do not mind to become more like Jesus. But I will not curse the trees

Well, it's not. There is no justice in that at all... it's just being really, really, really "nice," to the point of being a doormat. God is not a doormat.

Is it not just that we are given more than one life here on earth? If God wants us to become christians then he can just let us be born again and again? Why only one life?

You can't really compare Matthew and Mark in the way you're trying to compare them. I understand that's how you read it. I explained earlier why that is incorrect.

I will look at your explanation again:

First observe that Matthew does not say that the “cursing� of the fig tree was on the day following the cleansing of the temple.He simply says that it was “in the morning as he returned to the city� (21:18).Mark’s account makes it clear that the “morning� was Monday morning, following his visit on Sunday.Second, Matthew, for convenience sake, combines the “cursing of the tree� and the subsequent “discussion with the disciples,� without affirming that these events occurred on the same day.One must not read specificity into an account when it is not there.

Maybe you are right....hmm...what are you saying??? Just a question to myself. I will try and read Mark and Matthew again.

[PinSeeker]

If Jesus was born "today" I would sit at his feet and listen to him and ask questions.

If Jesus were born today, He would ultimately be killed, thus satisfying God's justice on our behalf, just like He did 2000+ years ago.

I do not mind to become more like Jesus.

But do you want to? If you want to, God will begin making you more like Jesus.

But I will not curse the trees

You can hug all the trees you possibly can if you want...

Is it not just that we are given more than one life here on earth?

No.

Why only one life?

That's all Jesus got, right?

I will look at your explanation again... Maybe you are right....hmm...what are you saying??? Just a question to myself. I will try and read Mark and Matthew again.

Don't compare them in the way you are trying to compare them. Writing a chronological narrative is quite different than treating subjects topically. Don't get bogged down in all that. Just assume that the Gospels are relating the same general message in different ways (which they are) and treat them independently. They are complementary, but not rigidly the same, if that makes sense. And what you should do in reading each one is not just to know about Jesus, but to know Him, as in a very close relationship/friendship. If you seek, you will find.