I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.
Jesus' words:
1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)
2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)
3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)
He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)
5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)
6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)
To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)
Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?
Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
JESUS IS NOT GOD
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onewithhim
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #211To RW....
Jesus left behind the physical body he had while on the earth. If he took the same fleshly body back, he would be eradicating his sacrifice. What sacrifice is there if the body is taken back?? He clearly was resurrected in a spirit body, just as he had in heaven before he came to the earth.
"Christ also died once for sins, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Put to death indeed in the flesh, he was brought back to life in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)
"It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)
When he appeared to his disciples (twice through a locked door), he had materialized a fleshly body, once inside, which he had to do so they could see him. He did just as angels had done in earlier times, in their interactions with Abraham and Lot. Are you familiar with those accounts?
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Jesus left behind the physical body he had while on the earth. If he took the same fleshly body back, he would be eradicating his sacrifice. What sacrifice is there if the body is taken back?? He clearly was resurrected in a spirit body, just as he had in heaven before he came to the earth.
"Christ also died once for sins, the Just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Put to death indeed in the flesh, he was brought back to life in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)
"It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)
When he appeared to his disciples (twice through a locked door), he had materialized a fleshly body, once inside, which he had to do so they could see him. He did just as angels had done in earlier times, in their interactions with Abraham and Lot. Are you familiar with those accounts?
.
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Revelations won
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #212Onewithhim,
In response to your request:
I will first go back even a little further to your post # 197
Dear You asked:
“How is John 17:3 a "man-made creed”?
My response: I do not recall having ever claimed that John 17:3 was a man made creed.
Please observe carefully what I said in my earlier post :
“Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
A careful examination of what I posted in no way claims that I said John 17:3 was a creed.
You also asked:
“How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism?”
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The forgoing statement from God clearly speaks in the plural “us” for he so states “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” “refutes the false concept of monotheism.” If God the Father was not talking to His Son, then who was he talking to?
Kind regards,
RW
In response to your request:
I will first go back even a little further to your post # 197
Dear You asked:
“How is John 17:3 a "man-made creed”?
My response: I do not recall having ever claimed that John 17:3 was a man made creed.
Please observe carefully what I said in my earlier post :
“Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
A careful examination of what I posted in no way claims that I said John 17:3 was a creed.
You also asked:
“How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism?”
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The forgoing statement from God clearly speaks in the plural “us” for he so states “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” “refutes the false concept of monotheism.” If God the Father was not talking to His Son, then who was he talking to?
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #213[Replying to Revelations won in post #212]
You ask, "If God was not talking to His Son then who was he talking to?" This was concerning Genesis 3:22. You want to show by Scripture that monotheism does not exist, therefore you say that because God spoke to someone and said, "The man has become like one of US"....this must mean that the one to whom He spoke has to be His equal---therefore 2 members of a "godhead." I ask: Why does the one to whom God spoke have to be His equal just because He spoke to that individual? He could have been talking to any of His angelic beings, who surely are not His equal. I believe He was talking mainly to His Son, the one who became Jesus Christ, but there is nothing there to show that God and Christ are equal. Therefore monotheism is unbesmirched.
You ask, "If God was not talking to His Son then who was he talking to?" This was concerning Genesis 3:22. You want to show by Scripture that monotheism does not exist, therefore you say that because God spoke to someone and said, "The man has become like one of US"....this must mean that the one to whom He spoke has to be His equal---therefore 2 members of a "godhead." I ask: Why does the one to whom God spoke have to be His equal just because He spoke to that individual? He could have been talking to any of His angelic beings, who surely are not His equal. I believe He was talking mainly to His Son, the one who became Jesus Christ, but there is nothing there to show that God and Christ are equal. Therefore monotheism is unbesmirched.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #214[Replying to onewithhim in post #213]
RevelationsWon, have you a reply to the above post that is addressed to you? I am always interested in your responses.
RevelationsWon, have you a reply to the above post that is addressed to you? I am always interested in your responses.
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Avoice
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #215[Replying to onewithhim in post #1]
Jesus isn't God. He's a guy from Nazareth.
And if anyone claims to know him they don't. How could they? The words he speaks aren't his. He didn't come to HIS will. So who really was he? And what was HIS will? Perhaps if we look at what he accomplished we might have an idea. He got people to disobey God. Yet it says he didn't. Reminds me of the serpent. He didn't eat from the tree. But he got Adam and Eve to disobey.
Jesus is noted talking to God. Okay. What did God say to him? Nothing. God doesn't speak in the Christian testament. Not to Paul. No one. So why bother listening to it? Oh wait....it promises eternal life. So what if God isn't in ir, right? Eternal life is all people hear. The serpent promised Eve the same thing. The oldest trick in the book.
If death was not an issue be why would people get Christian? It offers nothing. It tells you that you don't have to keep the law and to you'lll be rewarded with eternal life.
Christianity is God's gift to those who choose to disobey him. He is allowing them to live out their says in peace. Free of worry. Going to their graves with a smile on their faces thinking they will be rewarded. Christians don't fear God's wrath. God says don't eat pig. Oh, but it tastes so good...who cares what God said. And do they eat it. Yes...they due happy. That is their reward.
Take heed:
Like a partridge that sits on eggs and doesn't hatch them is he that gets riches and not by right will leave them in the midst of his days and in the end will be a fool
~ God
Jesus isn't God. He's a guy from Nazareth.
And if anyone claims to know him they don't. How could they? The words he speaks aren't his. He didn't come to HIS will. So who really was he? And what was HIS will? Perhaps if we look at what he accomplished we might have an idea. He got people to disobey God. Yet it says he didn't. Reminds me of the serpent. He didn't eat from the tree. But he got Adam and Eve to disobey.
Jesus is noted talking to God. Okay. What did God say to him? Nothing. God doesn't speak in the Christian testament. Not to Paul. No one. So why bother listening to it? Oh wait....it promises eternal life. So what if God isn't in ir, right? Eternal life is all people hear. The serpent promised Eve the same thing. The oldest trick in the book.
If death was not an issue be why would people get Christian? It offers nothing. It tells you that you don't have to keep the law and to you'lll be rewarded with eternal life.
Christianity is God's gift to those who choose to disobey him. He is allowing them to live out their says in peace. Free of worry. Going to their graves with a smile on their faces thinking they will be rewarded. Christians don't fear God's wrath. God says don't eat pig. Oh, but it tastes so good...who cares what God said. And do they eat it. Yes...they due happy. That is their reward.
Take heed:
Like a partridge that sits on eggs and doesn't hatch them is he that gets riches and not by right will leave them in the midst of his days and in the end will be a fool
~ God
I am limiting my debates and discussions to those of the Abrahamic faiths. To Jews, Christians and Muslims.
Those who show themself to be atheist, agnostic or have a similar lack of belief lack the foundation I require. Those of the Abrahamic faiths share a common history from which they can draw on and build on.
I am not here to debate God's existance. At most I will post a generic response to atheists and the like. Any other communication would be pointless and a waste of each other's time
Those who show themself to be atheist, agnostic or have a similar lack of belief lack the foundation I require. Those of the Abrahamic faiths share a common history from which they can draw on and build on.
I am not here to debate God's existance. At most I will post a generic response to atheists and the like. Any other communication would be pointless and a waste of each other's time
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #216Peace to you,
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”
Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
Christs asks His Father to glorify His (the Father's) name, and the Father answers. From another place we can know that His Father is the same One whom the Jews claim as their God.
"If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me." John 8:54
And of course God (the Father of Christ) is the One who spoke and said of Christ:
"This is my Son, my chosen one; listen to Him." Luke 9:35
And in another place, earlier,
And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Well that is not really true:[Replying to Avoice in post #215]
Jesus is noted talking to God. Okay. What did God say to him? Nothing. God doesn't speak in the Christian testament. Not to Paul. No one.
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”
Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
Christs asks His Father to glorify His (the Father's) name, and the Father answers. From another place we can know that His Father is the same One whom the Jews claim as their God.
"If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me." John 8:54
And of course God (the Father of Christ) is the One who spoke and said of Christ:
"This is my Son, my chosen one; listen to Him." Luke 9:35
And in another place, earlier,
And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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onewithhim
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #217Jesus came to do God's will, and "God" is his Father, Jehovah. Jesus' will was to show his love for Jehovah and to do his best to act in accordance with His will, though he, Jesus, would've liked to fulfill what his Father wanted in some other way than being branded a blasphemer.Avoice wrote: ↑Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:44 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #1]
Jesus isn't God. He's a guy from Nazareth.
And if anyone claims to know him they don't. How could they? The words he speaks aren't his. He didn't come to HIS will. So who really was he? And what was HIS will? Perhaps if we look at what he accomplished we might have an idea. He got people to disobey God. Yet it says he didn't. Reminds me of the serpent. He didn't eat from the tree. But he got Adam and Eve to disobey.
How can you say that he got people to disobey God? On the contrary. He reminded people to listen to God's Word and obey Him. He observed what God said His people should do, to the letter.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #218[Replying to tam in post #216]
A 'voice' huh?
Yeah.
Like the 'voice' at the baptism
It's an unidentified voice. No where in the Christian testament is God credited to say anything to Jesus or anybody else. By the way, 'the voice' was heard by bystanders. And they described it. And NONE OF THEM said it was God. And they were there. If it was God they'd have said it. Truth is, you don't know whose voice that is. You just want it to be God.
A 'voice' huh?
Yeah.
Like the 'voice' at the baptism
It's an unidentified voice. No where in the Christian testament is God credited to say anything to Jesus or anybody else. By the way, 'the voice' was heard by bystanders. And they described it. And NONE OF THEM said it was God. And they were there. If it was God they'd have said it. Truth is, you don't know whose voice that is. You just want it to be God.
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Avoice
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #219[Replying to onewithhim in post #217]
He came to do the will of the one that sent him. So who sent him? Who was his father?
If he kept the law 'to the letter's as you say, then he should have stoned the woman caught in adultery. God said she should have been stoned. Jesus disobeyed.
And when his disciples were plucking corn in the Sabbath he should have reprimanded them. Instead what did jesus do? Try to justify it.
You quote:
And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11
That's an unidentified voice talking about an unidentified person. Maybe the voice was talking about John the Baptist. Or someone else. Once again, it doesn't say God said anything
He came to do the will of the one that sent him. So who sent him? Who was his father?
If he kept the law 'to the letter's as you say, then he should have stoned the woman caught in adultery. God said she should have been stoned. Jesus disobeyed.
And when his disciples were plucking corn in the Sabbath he should have reprimanded them. Instead what did jesus do? Try to justify it.
You quote:
And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11
That's an unidentified voice talking about an unidentified person. Maybe the voice was talking about John the Baptist. Or someone else. Once again, it doesn't say God said anything
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tam
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #220Peace to you,
If you read my entire post, then you would see that this is not an unidentified voice. The Father is the same One whom the Jews claim as their God.
Please re-read my post, because what you are saying here is untrue.
Regardless of what I may or may not know, Christ knows that this was the voice of His Father (who is God).
Because it seems pretty clear to me, avoice.
And here is more evidence for you from the NT, in identifying that voice:
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 2Peter 1:17
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Avoice wrote: ↑Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:01 am [Replying to tam in post #216]
A 'voice' huh?
Yeah.
Like the 'voice' at the baptism
It's an unidentified voice.
If you read my entire post, then you would see that this is not an unidentified voice. The Father is the same One whom the Jews claim as their God.
No where in the Christian testament is God credited to say anything to Jesus or anybody else.
Please re-read my post, because what you are saying here is untrue.
Not if they did not recognize the voice of God.By the way, 'the voice' was heard by bystanders. And they described it. And NONE OF THEM said it was God. And they were there. If it was God they'd have said it.
Truth is, you don't know whose voice that is.
Regardless of what I may or may not know, Christ knows that this was the voice of His Father (who is God).
Or... you just don't want it to be God.You just want it to be God.
Because it seems pretty clear to me, avoice.
And here is more evidence for you from the NT, in identifying that voice:
He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 2Peter 1:17
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
