JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Miles]

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Seems that Jesus doesn't even know who he is. Poor guy.

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Jesus says he's god

John 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.”

John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

Jesus differentiates himself from god

Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

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[onewithhim]

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Seems that Jesus doesn't even know who he is. Poor guy.

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Jesus says he's god

John 8:24
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.”

John 10:33
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“

Jesus differentiates himself from god

Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.

Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

.

The three verses you quote to show that Jesus is confused actually do not show that he thought he was God.

JOHN 8:24.....What did he mean by saying "unless you believe I am he you will die in your sins"? Why do you think he was referring to himself as God? What he was saying was that unless someone believes that he is the Son of God who will give his life as a ransom for mankind that person will die. It says nothing about him being God. In fact, he speaks about "the One who sent me" a couple verses later, and then also he referred to the fact that he can do nothing of his own initiative, but just as the Father taught him, he speaks.

JOHN 10:30.....What did he mean by "I and the Father are one"? He meant that he and the Father are in agreement, just as he and his disciples were one with him and the Father. Yet the disciples are not also God. We see in John 17:21-23 that Jesus prays to God that his disciples will be "one" just as he and the Father are "one." They all would remain of one mind---in agreement together.

JOHN 10:33.....People who quote this verse don't go on to the next few verses. The Jews accused him of making himself God, but they were wrong about many things. They accused him falsely. In fact, he goes on to reprimand them indicating that he was NOT saying that was God but the SON of God (verse 36).


Therefore, I don't think that we can honestly say that those verses show that Jesus thought he was God.

[Miles]

The three verses you quote to show that Jesus is confused actually do not show that he thought he was God.

JOHN 8:24.....What did he mean by saying "unless you believe I am he you will die in your sins"? Why do you think he was referring to himself as God? What he was saying was that unless someone believes that he is the Son of God who will give his life as a ransom for mankind that person will die. It says nothing about him being God. In fact, he speaks about "the One who sent me" a couple verses later, and then also he referred to the fact that he can do nothing of his own initiative, but just as the Father taught him, he speaks.

JOHN 10:30.....What did he mean by "I and the Father are one"? He meant that he and the Father are in agreement, just as he and his disciples were one with him and the Father. Yet the disciples are not also God. We see in John 17:21-23 that Jesus prays to God that his disciples will be "one" just as he and the Father are "one." They all would remain of one mind---in agreement together.

JOHN 10:33.....People who quote this verse don't go on to the next few verses. The Jews accused him of making himself God, but they were wrong about many things. They accused him falsely. In fact, he goes on to reprimand them indicating that he was NOT saying that was God but the SON of God (verse 36).


Therefore, I don't think that we can honestly say that those verses show that Jesus thought he was God.

You make some good points; however, there are explanations and other verses to consider:

John 5:18
18 This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God!

"What does John 5:18 mean?

The Gospel of John often uses the Greek term Ioudaioi, which is translated as "the Jews." As John uses it, the word refers to the religious leaders of Jerusalem. This includes the Pharisees, Sadducees, and temple scribes. The Pharisees, in particular, were known for their legalism and traditions. These added-on rules were part of their interpretation of the law of Moses. Jesus, knowing that their approach to the Law was cold and hypocritical, often deliberately provoked these men over their errors (Luke 13:10–17; Matthew 12:9–14). According to John 5:16, the mere fact that Jesus was breaking traditional views of the Sabbath was enough to earn their persecution.

In verse 17, Jesus raises the stakes even further. He claims not only that God is His Father, but that the work He is doing is equivalent to the work done by God. The religious leaders, in particular, understand exactly what that implies. Jesus is telling other people that He is God. If that's not true, it's blasphemy, and this adds to the hatred He receives from the Pharisees.
source

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John 8:24
24 I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don’t believe that I Am, you will die in your sins.”

"What does John 8:24 mean?

Interestingly, Jesus once again uses the "I AM" phrasing here. In the gospel of John, there are seven highlighted moments where Jesus describes Himself using this specific expression. While this is not one of those, the meaning is the same. When God stated His identity in Exodus 3:14, He referred to Himself as "I AM," using a Hebrew phrasing implying necessary existence and absolute truth. When Jesus states in this verse that one must believe "I am he," it's yet another instance where He does, in fact, tell others that He is God."
source

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John 8:58
58 Jesus answered, “The fact is, before Abraham was born, I Am.”

"What does John 8:58 mean?

"In the gospel of John, there are seven instances where Jesus makes a statement alluding to His own divinity. These are known as the seven "I AM" statements. When Moses asked God how He should be identified to Israel, God said "I AM WHO I AM…Say this to the people of Israel: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" This phrase implies the simplest expression of God's nature: He just is, He must be. When Jesus uses this phrasing, He is deliberately invoking that same essence.

Jesus answers with what some refer to as the "hidden 'I AM'" statement, since it's not typically counted among the others. Ironically, this is perhaps the most direct of all of Jesus' uses of this phrase. The meaning is certainly not lost on His critics. When Jesus claims the title of "I AM," everyone listening knows exactly what He means: that He is God (John 10:33). Those who suggest that Jesus never actually claimed to be God should consider the reaction of the religious leaders to His words, shown in the next verse. They are so enraged that they attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59) right then and there. "
source

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[onewithhim]

The three verses you quote to show that Jesus is confused actually do not show that he thought he was God.

JOHN 8:24.....What did he mean by saying "unless you believe I am he you will die in your sins"? Why do you think he was referring to himself as God? What he was saying was that unless someone believes that he is the Son of God who will give his life as a ransom for mankind that person will die. It says nothing about him being God. In fact, he speaks about "the One who sent me" a couple verses later, and then also he referred to the fact that he can do nothing of his own initiative, but just as the Father taught him, he speaks.

JOHN 10:30.....What did he mean by "I and the Father are one"? He meant that he and the Father are in agreement, just as he and his disciples were one with him and the Father. Yet the disciples are not also God. We see in John 17:21-23 that Jesus prays to God that his disciples will be "one" just as he and the Father are "one." They all would remain of one mind---in agreement together.

JOHN 10:33.....People who quote this verse don't go on to the next few verses. The Jews accused him of making himself God, but they were wrong about many things. They accused him falsely. In fact, he goes on to reprimand them indicating that he was NOT saying that was God but the SON of God (verse 36).


Therefore, I don't think that we can honestly say that those verses show that Jesus thought he was God.

You make some good points; however, there are explanations and other verses to consider:

John 5:18
18 This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God!

"What does John 5:18 mean?

John 5:18 means what I commented in my last post. The Jews accused Jesus of saying things that he did not, and made up things as they went along. Why would they think that when he said "I am God's Son" that he was saying he was God?? That is something they might have believed, but it is not true.

Didn't they give him a sham trial and get people to testify against him falsely? Didn't they try to get soldiers to lie and say that his disciples came and took his body from the tomb while he was still dead? They previously had concocted many plans to get rid of him, even planning to kill him. The point is....the Jews said many false things against Jesus, and if we are to believe them when he said he was God's Son and yet they accused him of "making himself God," then we'll have to believe them when they accused him of "having a demon" and getting his power from the Devil (JOHN 8:48-52). Do you really trust those men?

[tam]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #274]

Also, just because they thought He was making Himself equal to God does not mean that they thought He was claiming to be God (JAH).

Sons are not their fathers.


Peace to you both!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Miles in post #273]

Miles, I have already commented on the verses you present.

Concerning John 8:58, please go to my post #10, which you must have missed. Thank you.


(BTW, concerning John 8:24---I commented on that just a few posts ago, post #272.)

[onewithhim]

Miles, would you please comment on my posts 10 and 272?

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

You claim that Jesus is not God. Tell me now, I pray, what would you now have without Jesus the Christ? Please give me your best and complete answers.

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

Dear Onewithhim,

You claim that Jesus is not God. Tell me now, I pray, what would you now have without Jesus the Christ? Please give me your best and complete answers.

Kind regards,
RW

Without Jesus the Christ our future would be quite bleak. It is because of him that people who accept him have the hope of living forever on this beautiful planet.

"For evildoers will be cut off, but those that wait upon the LORD [Jehovah], they shall inherit the earth....The meek shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace....The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever." (Psalm 37:9,11,29; KJV)

Our faith in Christ and all he said and did is counted to us for righteousness.

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

I find it amazing that you are so willing to deny the scriptures and deny the divinity of Jesus the Christ.

The scriptures show that he is Lord of lords and King of kings.

That he is given ALL power in heaven and on earth.

That all judgment is given to him.

That he is alpha and omega, the first and the last.

That his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom.

That he holds the keys of death and hell and has overcome the last enemy which is death.

That he has the power to bestow the keys of the kingdom of God to Peter.

That he was in deed the Word of God made flesh and came unto his own and they received him not.

That there is no name under heaven whereby man can be saved.

That he is the savior of all mankind.

That in him the fulness of the Godhead dwells.

That he is the creator of heaven and earth.

That the glorified description of Christ given to John the Revelator is essentially identical to the description of the Lord as given to Daniel.

You have essentially taken the same position as the unbelieving jews who also received him not.

At least you have to acknowledge that he whom you deny godhood has in every instance cited has become as one who has all power in heaven and earth and has the distinction as the risen Lord now stands on the right hand of God the father as so testified by the faithful Martyr Steven.

May God help your unbelief.

RW