JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

Dear Onewithhim,

You responded as follows:

“I definitely represent Christ's resurrection as being in a spirit body. The Scriptures a quite clear. If he took back his physical body, he would've taken back his sacrifice, would he not?”

My response:
I disagree with you on this point. I think your problem stems from a lack of understanding the mighty atonement of Christ. It appears that you are drawing conclusions regarding the atonement are based on deductive reasoning. In my previous posts I have presented scriptures that make it very clear that the resurrected Christ has a body of flesh and bone.


When Paul wrote about the resurrections of the holy ones, and of course Jesus was the paramount "holy one," he said: "It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one." (I Corinthians 15:44)


Sorry you forgot to mention 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Paul points out very clearly regarding Adam and Christ that “the second man is the Lord from heaven.” It is obvious that you deny Christ as being the Lord.

Just how do you draw that conclusion? Tell me from what I've said that I deny Christ as Lord, in plain, simple words without writing a book. There is nothing that I have said that would indicate that I deny Christ as Lord. He is the Lord of lords and King of mankind's kings. He is the only begotten Son of Jehovah God and will soon rule over the earth. His rulership is what people have prayed for every time they say the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9,10). His reign over the earth will resolve all of humans' problems, and God's Kingdom will rule forever (Daniel 2:44; Isaiah 9:6,7). How does that sound like I deny Jesus' Lordship?

.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1]

This is my first post on the forum.

Jesus Christ is mankind's God. He is our Lord, Creator and Savior. Here is what Thomas said:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Now if you are asking if Jesus Christ is the supreme God from which everything exists, then the answer is no.

Jesus Christ is the Son of "God the Father" who is supreme is authorship and authority. Nothing happens unless it is God the Father's "will" for it to happen. He is Jesus' God and Father:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

All things exist by the Father, even Jesus Christ:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This is a very touchy subject for most people because the truth of scripture contradicts the Trinity doctrine (which most people have come to believe).

In summary, God the Father is the one supreme God from which all things exist. He created Jesus at some point BEFORE this creation began and then THROUGH Jesus, He produced this creation. Therefore, it is not wrong to say that Jesus Christ is mankind's God because He truly is. He created us and is in the process of making us into children of God the Father. Someday, when Christ's work is complete, God the Father will have created many new sons of God, but He did it through Jesus Christ.

The purpose and meaning of life is for mankind to be made into God's children. This is how God the Father reproduces Himself. We are all in the process of being born has children of God and will become a part of His family someday.

FaithWillDo

[onewithhim]

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #292]

You had me until you said that Jesus is mankind's God. Then things got fuzzy. All of what you said at first is spot-on. I don't know how you can then say that Jesus is the God of mankind. It is Jehovah who is mankind's God, in reality, as you brought out in the verses you cited. And many of us are already "children of God." We become that by dedicating ourselves to Him and working to align ourselves completely with His will.

"Consequently, my beloved ones, just as you have always obeyed...keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the One who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you..." (Philippians 2:12,13)

Jesus is not God, and he never hinted that he might be. He always focused on his Father, and giving Him the glory.


.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #293]

I am not claiming that Jesus is God the Father nor am I claiming that He is the supreme God. God the Father is supreme and always will be. He is of higher authority than Jesus. He even created Jesus. I'll try to explain a little more below.

"God" is not a name but a title. The name of God the Father from which all things exist is Jehovah. Scripture says that Satan is the god of this world and that someday we, too will be called gods. God is a title. You are confusing the title "god" with a name.

There is only one supreme God and He is the Father. His name is Jehovah. But since Jesus is mankind's creator, He carries the title "God" with mankind. Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. But nevertheless, He is mankind's God.

The name "Jesus" is the transliteration of Jehovah. Jesus came in the name and full authority of His Father, so much so that when Jesus did anything, it was God the Father doing it through Jesus. All of creation was made by God the Father through Jesus. All the Father's communication with mankind is through Jesus. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the One who spoke with Moses. Jesus is the Great I am. He represents the Father in name and authority. It is not wrong to call Him mankind's God.

The Father gave Jesus the full measure of His Spirit, which made Jesus "one" with the Father. When Jesus gives a person the Spirit, the Spirit likewise makes them one with Jesus and the Father. Our relationship is then restored to the Father. When that event of conversion happens, we become children of God and it is not wrong to call us gods.

Here are some verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse above is speaking about Jesus. He is called the mighty God and everlasting Father - not because He is the Father but because He came in the name and power of the Father.

John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

The name of the Father that is being gloried is Jehovah which is the same name Jesus bore. Any glory Jesus received belonged to Jehovah. Jesus is the physical expression and representation of the Father. But Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. And as I said, He is mankind's God (a title), just not the supreme God Jehovah from which all things exist.

Does that explain it better?
Joe

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #293]

As for the verse you quoted:

Phl 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This verse is in complete agreement with what I just posted. In the verse, Paul is referring to Jehovah God the Father. He simply shortens it to "God". God the Father "worketh" us to both "will" and do of His good pleasure (no free will here). He does this by His Spirit which dwells within us. That same Spirit dwells within Jesus in full measure whereas we, for the moment, only have an earnest amount of the Spirit.

Joe

[myth-one.com]

I definitely represent Christ's resurrection as being in a spirit body. The Scriptures are quite clear. If he took back his physical body, he would've taken back his sacrifice, would he not?

Actually, it's just the opposite.

The man Jesus Christ lived a sinless human life under the Old Testament Covenant between God and mankind, and thus qualified as an heir unto everlasting spiritual bodied life under that Covenant. That is, the wages of sin is the second death, but He never sinned, therefore He became an heir to everlasting life under that covenant.

God then allowed Jesus to offer His inheritance as a gift to all mankind who believe in Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sin.

Thus, under the New Testament Covenant, salvation becomes a gift of God through Jesus Christ:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If Jesus is resurrected as a spiritual bodied being, then He accepted His inheritance and cannot also gift it to us Christians.

If that happens, Christians have no salvation.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #293]

I am not claiming that Jesus is God the Father nor am I claiming that He is the supreme God. God the Father is supreme and always will be. He is of higher authority than Jesus. He even created Jesus. I'll try to explain a little more below.

"God" is not a name but a title. The name of God the Father from which all things exist is Jehovah. Scripture says that Satan is the god of this world and that someday we, too will be called gods. God is a title. You are confusing the title "god" with a name.

I know that "god" is a title. I know that God Almighty's name is Jehovah.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that "someday we too will be called gods." Can you provide chapter and verse please?

(I am not confusing anything.)

You say that Jesus is "I AM." You get that from a sloppy translation of John 8:58. That verse does not mean that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He never was Jehovah. His name means "Salvation OF Jehovah," that is, Jehovah's means of salvation. You need to look more into "Jehovah" and how many times His name is in the Old Testament (7,000 times), and how He is distinct from the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I'd be interested to know where you get your information from.
.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #297]

You asked:
I don't know where you are getting the idea that "someday we too will be called gods." Can you provide chapter and verse please?

Here are the verses:

John 10:34 - 35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Mankind is in the process of changing from "man" (Adam) into children of God. If we are children of God, then we are gods.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You asked:
You say that Jesus is "I AM." You get that from a sloppy translation of John 8:58. That verse does not mean that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He never was Jehovah. His name means "Salvation OF Jehovah," that is, Jehovah's means of salvation. You need to look more into "Jehovah" and how many times His name is in the Old Testament (7,000 times), and how He is distinct from the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I'd be interested to know where you get your information from.

The Father (Jehovah) only communicated to mankind through Christ. Christ even said:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Christ is the Word of God and He is the one who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He is the "I am" and that is why Christ said:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Even the Jews He spoke to understood His meaning and they immediately picked up stones to stone Him.

You said "Jesus never was Jehovah" which is true. Jesus is the Son of Jehovah but He came to mankind in the name and full authority of Jehovah. Jesus has the FULL measure of Jehovah's Spirit. This does not make Him Jehovah but it does make Him Jehovah's representative, so much so, that Christ said this:

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

My information comes solely from scripture and from my own study of it. I do not associate with any group or churches.

One more point about Jesus coming in the name of the Father. Look at these verses:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

So when the Apostles baptized believers, what name did they use? They used the name of Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #297]

You asked:
I don't know where you are getting the idea that "someday we too will be called gods." Can you provide chapter and verse please?

Here are the verses:

John 10:34 - 35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

This doesn't tell us that we all will someday become gods. Jesus is reminding the Pharisees that God called human judges "gods" in the past. See that? In the past. He referred to Psalm 82:6. Your point is negated.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #297]

You asked:
I don't know where you are getting the idea that "someday we too will be called gods." Can you provide chapter and verse please?

Here are the verses:

John 10:34 - 35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Mankind is in the process of changing from "man" (Adam) into children of God. If we are children of God, then we are gods.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

How do you reason that because humans become the children of God, they also become gods? This is not reasonable and is a new idea to me. You are adding to Scripture. Do you mind explaining that line of thought?

.