JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #321

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to Miles in post #313]

You commented:
Yet faith is an almost meaningless concept because there's nothing that can't be taken on faith. Having faith in god is no more meaningful than having faith that pink unicorns and fluttering faeries exist.

Faith is a gift from God and is given to an unbeliever when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. Unless Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them this gift, they will remain unbelievers who have no faith. Faith cannot be acquired any other way. I have received both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit and have a great deal of faith. It is not blind faith. My faith is based upon the truth of scripture which Christ revealed to me. He gave me great "treasure" (knowledge of God) and it has more value than any physical treasure ever could have. If you do not have faith, it will be given to you someday at a time of Christ's choosing.

You commented:
Then there's absolutely no reason to worship or revere god, or even believe he exists. Chuck Jesus and all he is said to stand for because in the end we all get to stick in our thumbs and pull out the plum.

There is a pathway that mankind must follow in order to be restored to our creator. This is salvation. You will follow that pathway someday because Christ will cause you to follow it. He will not force you to follow it. He does not operate that way. He will cause you to desire to follow the pathway and He will guide you every step of the way. Christ's work is spiritual work. It happens within us. He will prepare your heart and give you the answer of your tongue.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.


As I said before, Christ's work is spiritual work but since mankind is a spiritually blind creature, we cannot detect the work that He is doing within us:

Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

When Christ is ready to convert you from a child of the devil (all mankind starts off that way) to being a child of God, He will do His work within you. You won't even know He did it except for the fact that your beliefs and desires will change. Then He will reveal Himself to you and you will marvel at the ways of God.

Here is a copy of my conversion testimony:

Conversion Testimony of Joe & Julie Edwards
October 8th, 2005


Two years ago, my wife Julie and I had been without a church home for 4 years after having moved to Fayetteville, AR. We visited many churches during that time (some for 3 or 4 months) but we never could find any that seemed to have a real love for the Lord. After our own personal study of the scripture, we decided that we wanted to be baptized in the Name of Jesus instead of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as we had done many years ago. We could not find any churches that would baptize this way until we talked to a friend (Rusty Newman) who went to a Oneness Pentecostal church in Bentonville, AR. We decided to go and be baptized there even though we were from a Church of Christ/Baptist type background. We studied in the scripture about receiving the Holy Spirit and the gifts which the Spirit gives.

Four weeks later, my wife was filled with the Spirit at home and started speaking in tongues. It was a very powerful experience with her. She was constantly filled for about two weeks, speaking in tongues nearly every time she opened her mouth. She spent a great deal of time on her knees in tears speaking in tongues as she prayed. We didn't really know what to think of it. Like I said, we were from a church background that denies tongues. We were not children either, I was 43 and she was 37. We really were amazed with her experience. A few weeks went by and she would still go on her knees in prayer every day and the Spirit would speak through her in tongues until one day as she spoke, the words changed into English. We soon realized that she was prophesying in the Spirit. We had never even heard of this gift before and were greatly amazed by it. Over the next year & a half, she has received "words" (that is what we call them) from the Lord more than two dozen times. One of the words she received told us (me & her) that the Lord had great treasure for us if we would continue seeking him.

I will quote it to you:
"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."

Julie received this "word" in July 2004. I know what you are thinking - I wouldn't have believed it is real either if someone were to tell me about it happening to someone else. I was not sure whether to believe it or not for a long time. But after a few months, I did come to believe it was really from the Lord because the things she prayed over and received "words" concerning, would come to pass just as she prophesied.

Then four weeks ago, my journey to the Lord took a sudden and giant step! I saw a picture on foxnews.com of a young Muslim boy (age 12) who had just lived through the recent Pakistan earthquake. For some reason, my heart for this boy was really going out to him. I have rarely ever felt this way before by a news story. That evening in prayer at home, the image of the boy came back to me and I grieved for him as I prayed. I was not grieving for him because of the earthquake but because I thought that he was going to be eternally lost and that he really doesn't have a realistic chance of being saved. I couldn't understand why I had been blessed with the opportunity to know the Lord and why he has virtually no opportunity since he lives in a Muslim country. I asked the Lord why this was the case. I was so confused and couldn't understand why he was most likely going to hell just because of where he had been born. Almost three days had passed since I had prayed that prayer and I had not given it much more thought. But on that third day (Friday, Oct. 7, 2005) I had some extra time at work so I decided to study "end-time" prophecy on the internet (my great passion). I went to Google and searched on a couple of words (I can't remember them now) and a list of websites came up. I looked through the list and noticed Ray Smith's website “bible-truths.com”. I thought it looked interesting so I clicked on it. By the next morning, I had read his Lake of Fire Series for a few hours and was now on part four. I couldn't believe what I was reading but I felt compelled to continue reading it anyway. Later that same morning (Saturday, Oct. 8, 2005), I took a break from my reading to pray about it. I prayed for the Lord to open my eyes if what Ray Smith had written was true and went back to reading. I was still on the fourth part when the Lord suddenly opened my eyes. I became overjoyed at the truth the Lord had just revealed to me! It was joy like I had never felt before in my life. It was at that point that I remembered my prayer from earlier in the week concerning the Muslim boy. Immediately, I knew that this new truth which the Lord had just shown me was the answer to that prayer. I was overjoyed again. I then decided to find Julie (she was in the kitchen) and share with her what the Lord had just revealed to me. I explained to her what I had been reading and pointed out the supporting scriptures. Within 30 minutes, she was filled with the Spirit and began praising the Lord because of the new knowledge of the truth that He had revealed to her, too.

The last 4 weeks Julie and I have studied scripture every day and have been trying to share the new truths with our friends at church. But cutting through the details, we ended up leaving the church for good a few days ago. No one there could receive the truth that the Lord had revealed to us. In just four short weeks, we had learned so much from our studies that nearly everything we knew before as “truth”, we now knew to be lies. I could hardly believe how spiritually blind we were just a few short weeks before. Now from scripture, we have come to understand what had just happened in both our lives - the Lord had appeared unto us a second time, baptized us with His Spirit (Latter Rain) and healed our spiritual vision. We found the "treasure" mentioned in Julie’s prophesy from about a year & a half ago. We didn't even remember her receiving that "word" until I stumbled across it a few days ago from an old email I had sent to a family member. When I reminded her of it and read it to her, she was filled with tears of joy again.

The next day, Julie received another "word" from the Lord. It said:
"I will answer. I have shown you the truth in My Word. It is only revealed to those who seek it. It is by faith. It is for those who seek to know Me. I will bring all before My judgment, which is righteous and true. I will complete all things as I have committed to do by My Word. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by man, even if I reveal it. It will be as I have spoken it. Some will hear and not believe. Some will hear and search but will desire the favor of men more than Me. Some will hear and seek understanding, and by faith I will show them. These will be few. These few will rejoice as one who has found great treasure! Keep seeking, remain faithful and I will give abundant blessings. You ask of Yahweh. I Am that I Am, come to men to show them the Light. Of the One, from and in the One when all things are completed as it was established before time. All will be brought to life in the One. It will not then be needful to show man God or give man His Spirit. Man cannot receive more because he cannot understand".

Several weeks after receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Julie ceased receiving “words” from the Lord. She has not received any since that time. I believe it is because of what this verse teaches:

1Cor 13:8-10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #322

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #320]

You commented:
And following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their second and everlasting death:

The Lamb's book of Life is only for those saved in this present age. They are the First-Fruits of the harvest. They will have life during the ages. All others will be sent off for judgment. This judgment is called the "second death" because they are second to be converted. The death is the death of their carnal nature, not their souls. They will be save THROUGH fire and made pure just a gold is purified by fire. In the end, this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #323

Post by myth-one.com »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:50 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #320]

You commented:
And following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and quickly suffer their second and everlasting death:

The Lamb's book of Life is only for those saved in this present age. They are the First-Fruits of the harvest. They will have life during the ages. All others will be sent off for judgment. This judgment is called the "second death" because they are second to be converted. The death is the death of their carnal nature, not their souls. They will be save THROUGH fire and made pure just a gold is purified by fire.

Joe
Revelation 21:8" wrote:But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Human bodies are destroyed by fire, not purified.

<============================>


Jesus Christ is specifically identified as being the "first fruits":
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
Every single human who has ever lived will follow this example set by Jesus:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)
All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:
But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)
The next to be resurrected are "they that are Christ's" or Christians. They will be resurrected unto everlasting life at the Second Coming.

The rest of the dead (nonbelievers) will be resurrected as humans after the 1000 year Millennium:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #324

Post by Miles »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:44 pm [Replying to Miles in post #313]

You commented:
Yet faith is an almost meaningless concept because there's nothing that can't be taken on faith. Having faith in god is no more meaningful than having faith that pink unicorns and fluttering faeries exist.

Faith is a gift from God and is given to an unbeliever when they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Then how do you explain my faith in the existence of pink unicorns and fluttering faeries? Because I don't remember getting any "Early Rain of the Spirit," whatever the heck that is.

Oh yes, just as an FYI:

faith
/fāTH/
noun: faith
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Source: Oxford Languages Dictionary


Unless Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them this gift, they will remain unbelievers who have no faith.
Then lucky me I guess.

Here is a copy of my conversion testimony:

Conversion Testimony of Joe & Julie Edwards
October 8th, 2005


Two years ago, my wife Julie and I had . . . .

. . . . But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Sorry, but your testimony means bupkis.


.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #325

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #320]

Here is a little more comment on the Lake of Fire and why it is not "for ever and ever":

The "torment" of the lost is spiritual (mental anguish), not physical. The fire is not literal fire. "Fire" means Christ's righteous judgment which purifies us. And His judgment is not "eternal" as you believe.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day for ever and ever (aion aion).

The Greek word "aion" means "age". In Rev 20:20, when it says "aion aion", it means for the age of the ages:

This is how this verse should be translated:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day for the ages of the ages.

In Mat 25:46, the verse uses aion's adjective form of "aionios" which is also commonly mis-translated:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into everlasting life.

Here is the correct translation:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into age-enduring punishment: but the righteous into age-enduring life.

The Elect receive life during the ages (part of their blessing) but all others will only have life at the end of the final age. Once the last person is saved, the "ages" will come to an end and Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father. God will then be "all in all" and Christ's reign will come to an end.

1Cor 15: 25-28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now look at this verse were "aion aion" is used in Rev 11:15 just like it was used in Rev 20:10:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever (aion aion).

If "aion aion" should be translated as "for ever and ever" as in Rev 11:15, then why does Paul say that Christ's reign will come to an end someday? Rev 11:15 and 1Cor 15:25 are in direct conflict with each other. Either Christ reigns for ever and ever or He completes His mission to save the world and His reign comes to an end. Paul's verse has no translation dispute and it teaches that Christ's reign comes to an end because all mankind will be in the Kingdom of Heaven someday and Christ's reign is no longer necessary.

With that understanding, Rev 11:15 should read as:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for the ages of the ages (aion aion).

I believe the reason most bible versions translate "aion aion" as "for ever and ever" is to support the false teaching of eternal hell. Hell is not eternal nor is it literal fire. All of God's creation in scripture is confined to the "ages" which were established before the world began. Once the purpose for the creation of the ages is accomplished (creating many new child of God), the ages will come to an end as will the reign of Christ.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #326

Post by myth-one.com »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #321]

Thanks for sharing your Conversion Testimony!

=================================================================

The following is what the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)
All mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. Likewise, every human who ever died shall be resurrected or made alive again. Jesus was resurrected first:
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)
The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming." The Second Coming is described in Revelation chapter nineteen:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:11-13)
Christians who are alive on the earth when Jesus returns will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)
At this point after the first resurrection, all Christians (dead or alive) have been born again as spiritual beings. They will then enjoy the millennium with Jesus:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
After the millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves and face judgment:
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)
After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection! So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened? Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will make their choice after understanding what the two possible choices are. If they were not given a choice on earth prior to their death, they will be given their choice after their resurrection as mortal humans in the second resurrection. From the New International Version of The Holy Bible:
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)
Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
Recall that all dead and living Christians were born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming. And there is no reason to believe that anyone will become a believer during the 1000 year millennium, as they have no preachers:
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)
All whose names were written in the Book of Life as believers were born again at the Second Coming. So the Book of Life has been cleared. All inheritors have received their rewards. After the 1000 year Millennium, the second resurrection for mankind occurs:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)
Everyone raised in this second resurrection will face the great white throne judgment as all have sinned and are all headed for the second death.

The judgment will hold them responsible for their behavior as humans and some may see that God's plan for them was better than their way of life.

Satan is locked away during this time, the scriptures are unsealed, and these nonbelievers are explained the true good news of the scriptures.

Following this process, the Book of Life is checked again.

Why check the book if there were no names in it prior to the second resurrection, and everyone resurrected at the second resurrection was headed for the second death?

Would God raise these people again as physical bodies only to humiliate them during their judgment before casting them into the lake of fire? Why bother raising them from the dead only to inflict another painful physical death upon them? This flies in the face of "God is love." If the nonbelievers are being resurrected to be humiliated by judgment before being killed a second time, why not simply allow them to remain dead?

Of course, God is love, and He is raising the nonbelievers for a reason! One event prophesied to occur before the end of time is that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world.

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity! The majority of all people who have ever lived have never, ever, heard the true message of the Holy Scriptures, even in the United States. Remember that the scriptures have been very successfully sealed until the end of time! At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
Children who die in their innocent years will make this decision after being resurrected as mortals and reaching maturity following the Second Coming of Jesus. I was taught that innocent children go immediately to heaven upon their death. This is not the case. The true gospel message that every individual chooses his or her personal fate regardless of their age at death must replace the false message that murdered children go immediately to heaven for eternity.

I live about 20 miles from where a distraught mother murdered her five children while they were in their "innocent years" so at to send them immediately to live eternally with God in Heaven; thus avoiding even the possibility that they might burn in hell eternally. She was taught this false theology at a Christian church.

That was the last straw for me!

The bottom line is that every human will choose everlasting life or everlasting death after understanding the true good news of the scriptures.

The majority of mankind will make their decision after their appointed first death:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)
The first death is appointed and cannot be avoided.

The second death is optional, depending on our individual informed personal choice:
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)
God is pro life, but will honor either choice.

Life is wonderful! :D

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #327

Post by FaithWillDo »

You commented:
Jesus Christ is specifically identified as being the "first fruits":

Yes, but so are those saved in this present age:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

You commented:
Every single human who has ever lived will follow this example set by Jesus:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)


All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)


The next to be resurrected are "they that are Christ's" or Christians. They will be resurrected unto everlasting life at the Second Coming.

The rest of the dead (nonbelievers) will be resurrected as humans after the 1000 year Millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

[/quote]


The resurrection of the First-Fruits happens next and then the resurrection of the lost to judgment follows shortly thereafter. The thousand years you mentioned is not literal time. It is a spiritual symbol which carries its own meaning. Here is what it is referring to:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the evil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Word of God is written in spiritual language using physical symbols that represent spiritual truths. The "thousand years" is just another one of those symbols. It is not a literal amount of time.

Peter and John, like Christ and the other writers, teach in Christ's spiritual language. What Peter and John are presenting is NOT literal and should not be applied outwardly. Their teachings are spiritual and because of such, they should be applied inwardly (spiritually) which is where Christ is doing His work under the New Covenant. Christ is cleaning the inside of mankind's cup (Mat 23:26). The Old Covenant is man's work and it is physical & outward. It can only clean the outside of the cup. We must rightly divide the Word of God by the two covenants.

The words Peter and John use carry a spiritual meaning and their meaning is DIFFERENT from what "man's wisdom teaches". I can't stress this concept enough. To understand those words, we must compare "spiritual with spiritual". In other words, we must look to scripture and see how the words are used elsewhere and then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can discern their meaning.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE wil he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Let's examine what Peter said first:

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Peter 3:8 is very important in the overall understanding of what Peter is teaching in this chapter. He is teaching about conversion which includes the judgment of Christ. And as you will see later, John is teaching about the same thing.

The events Peter mentions in 2Pet 3:1-10, happen "within" us because that is where the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ) comes. They are spiritual events and are solely the work of Christ.

Luk 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The "one day" which Peter compares to a "thousand years" is teaching on the Day of the Lord and the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. The reason they are "like" each other is because they both run concurrently "within" the believer.

The Day of the Lord starts when Christ comes a second time (the second coming of Christ/the Latter Rain of the Spirit) to a "called out" believer (one who has received the Early Rain of the Spirit). When Christ comes the second time, He brings salvation and judgment. This is the point of conversion when the Man of Sin is destroyed, the New Man in Christ is born and the Old Man's judgment begins.

The Man of Sin is who we become after receiving the EARLY Rain of the Spirit. Here is where Christ teaches how a believer becomes a Man of Sin:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Unclean (Evil) spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

After the new believer devolves into a Man of Sin, their deadly head wound that came from the sword of Christ at the time of the Early Rain is healed. The blow by the Sword of Christ was intended to slay our carnal nature (Old man) but because of our spiritual blindness and Satan’s deceptions, the wound is healed and our Old Man continues to live.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

As a result, we are still represented by the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. In case you are unaware, the Seven Headed Beast is a symbol for mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition. After our deadly head wound is healed, we have truly "fallen away" and become a Man of Sin who follows the ways of Satan instead of Christ. This is the one and only sin (works) that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance. It is for this reason that Christ must come a second time to us if we are going to be saved in this age. When He comes (Day of the Lord), He brings the Latter Rain, which is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days.

The "thousand years" reign mentioned by John in Rev 20:4 represents the judgment of our carnal nature. Our carnal nature is represented by the terms Man of Sin and Old Man. The thousand years is understood as 10x10x10. The number TEN spiritually represents the completeness of our flesh (our carnal nature). It is considered complete when we are made "worse than before" into a Man of Sin. Since the number TEN is repeated 3 times, we need to apply the meaning of THREE to its meaning. The number THREE represents a complete spiritual process. In this case, the process is the judgment of our carnal nature. The Man of Sin is judged first and is destroyed within "one hour" (Rev 18:19). The Old Man is judged second but his destruction does not happen immediately. It takes the full "thousand years" for him to be destroyed. His judgment occurs when he is reigned over by Christ and the New Man (Rev 20:6). This is a spiritual judgment and happens with the believer. When this judgment is complete, the Day of the Lord and the Thousand Years Reign are complete within the believer.

This is the same judgment that Peter spoke of in these two verses:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire (judgment), might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.


During our time of judgment (thousand years), Satan will no longer deceive us (Rev 20:2). He is held in the bottomless pit (no foundation because the only foundation is Christ). But after the thousand years are complete (Rev 20:3), Satan is loosed for a "short season" to test us. And like when Satan tested Christ in the wilderness, we too, will not fall prey to him.

It is only during the "3 1/2 years" that Satan kills the saints (Mat 24:9, Rev 11:7, Hos 4:6). "3 1/2 years" is the spiritual term which represents the time period between the Early and Latter Rains when we are made "worse than before" (Man of Sin) by Satan's deceptions. This time period is typed by the "3 1/2 years" when Elijah caused it not to rain and by Daniel's "times, time and half a time, 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 years and 3 1/2 days.

Once the "thousand years" are complete for all of Christ's Elect in this age, the "thousand years" will come to an end for those receiving the "first resurrection". This is a spiritual resurrection reserved for the Elect who experience the first death (death of our carnal nature). The rest of the dead (mankind) who did not take part in the first resurrection, will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment) where they will experience the "second death" and the second resurrection. At that time, the Elect will be "priests of God and Christ" and will reign with Them during the "thousand years" of those who are cast into the Lake of Fire. Once those in the Lake of Fire have paid the last penny (Luke 12:59) and their carnal nature has been ground to powder (Mat 21:44), they too, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and God will be "all in all".

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #328

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #326]

I'm not going to comment specifically to your last comments. I understand what you are stating very well. Before I was converted, I was an End-time prophecy teacher in my last church. It was my great passion. But since my conversion, I have come to understand that everything I taught was incorrect. The correct understanding of End-time prophecy is that it teaches about the pathway that leads to salvation (conversion). That pathway is long and has many steps to it. That pathway ends with the death of the old vessel (Adam) and the birth of the new vessel (Christ). We go from being a child of the devil to being a child of God. It is referred to as the end-time because it is the end of who we are "in Adam".

As for the second coming of Christ, it is a spiritual second coming to each individual. He does not come back visibly to the world at some future point in time where He can be seen with human eyes. The second coming of Christ is when Christ appears to an individual spiritually and gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is the moment of conversion for the individual. Until that event happens within an individual, Christ remains "veiled" from our understanding. But in any case, Christ will never be seen again with physical eyes like He was when He came in the flesh. However, someday, when we have our new resurrected spiritual bodies, we will see Him face to face. But in the flesh, we will never visibly see Him again. He is now spirit and only works "within" us.

If I believed that Christ as prepared your heart to receive what I am teaching, I would continue this debate. But I don't be believe He has presently made you ready to receive what I am presenting. With that in mind, this is probably a good time to end our debate. Plus I will be out of town for a couple of days starting in the morning so my time is limited.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #329

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Onewithhim,

You said:That when he appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, the door was LOCKED. He could not have entered in a physical body. (John 20:19, 26) (They were thinking at first that they were hallucinating. This is as sensible as you saying he came through a locked door.)

My response:

Since Christ was, as the scriptures testify, the creator of heaven and earth, then he existed as a spirit being before he was born in the flesh as the literal Son of God. Since he was and is the creator he is sovereign over his creations and has full control over all the elements, so a solid wall or locked door are no deterrent restricting the movements of his body. As I recall he also demonstrated this point when he turned water into wine, or fed the 5000 from a few fishes and loaves. Also consider the fact that he had no problem walking on water. Perhaps if you developed the same mighty faith that our Lord and savior did, I suppose you could also move mountains and perform other great miracles.

You said:

“There is no scripture anywhere that shows that Jesus had, or any person has, an identical spirit person living inside them that goes on living after death.”


My response:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The above scriptures do not say their spirits are dead, but “asleep” in Jesus.


You said:

"When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: 'It has been accomplished!' and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit." (John 19:30) Why should we believe that he really didn't die but went off somewhere in spirit form after his death and before his resurrection? Can you answer that?”

My response:

I have answered that issue as responded to in my previous post.

You said:

“The scripture never indicates that he was alive anywhere before his resurrection after three days. When it says "his spirit," it refers to the breath of life that kept him alive---God's own Holy Spirit that keeps us all alive. That is the meaning of "his spirit." Jehovah's Spirit that kept him alive was withdrawn from Jesus so that he died.”

You mention "flesh and bone." That's a sly one that my former religion gave us when I was a Baptist.

The Scripture says that FLESH and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, or, heaven. You switched "blood" for "bone" and now you can say that a physical body can go to heaven?? “

My response:

I think the Baptist faith whom you left may be far more correct on this point than your present JW opinion and interpretation of the scripture.

You said:
“It says that FLESH is also a no-no when speaking of going to heaven. What about THAT part of the formula? NEITHER flesh nor blood can enter into heaven.”


My response:

The scripture is very clear that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

You state “NEITHER flesh nor blood can enter into heaven.”

The scripture clearly says “Flesh AND blood shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The scripture does NOT say that flesh and bone cannot enter into heaven.



You said:

We all must pay closer attention to what the scriptures actually say, rather than some popular rendering.”

My additional responses:

It is my observation according to the following scriptures that man’s soul is composed of a spirit body and a physical body.:

Psalms 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?


Hebrews 12:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


Job 38:4
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Now Onewithhim, if you continue to deny the true divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, then it is very obvious that you by your claims, must admit that man’s eternal destiny is therefore also one of great exaltation and glory for Christ so prayed to His father that mortal man would also be joint heirs with Christ and also inherit all that the father hath.

Best regards,
RW

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #330

Post by onewithhim »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:49 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #315]

You must believe that scripture is unreliable and is self-conflicting. It is not. Jesus came in the name of God the Father. All the names of God apply to Jesus. For that reason, He is called the mighty God and everlasting Father. God the Father bestowed all His power and authority on Him and then through Jesus, God the Father created and interacted with all of creation. All of the interaction with the Adam, Abraham and so forth was by Jesus. He was the one who walked with Adam in the Garden, the one who spoke with Noah and Abraham, the one who spoke to Moses and guided the Nation of Israel from the cloud. Jesus is mankind's creator and God because the Father gave Him that glory.

Joe
I don't think that Scripture is unreliable. Why you say that of me doesn't make sense to me. One thing I know to be true that you seem to disagree with is that Jesus is not Jehovah and does not possess the glory that is to be given to the Father, Jehovah. He has glory that the Father gave him, but it does not equal or surpass the glory that the Father possesses.

.

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