JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

If folks would just do a little research, it would be evident that "Jehovah" is God's personal name and, as tigger has said, is in the Bible thousands of times, one of them at Exodus 3:15. Jesus is not the same as Jehovah, as is evident throughout the Scriptures. It just takes a little time to see the validity of the arguments that point toward Jesus and Jehovah as Son and Father---two separate Beings.

[Revelations won]

Dear onewithin,

Please review my responses on the topic "Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same". If you can respond to each and every scripture I used to affirm my view that they are indeed one and the same, showing otherwise I would love to hear your opposing evidence.
For starters I would like to see your documented response to my last post dated 7-26-2020.

Thank you.

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

Dear onewithin,

Please review my responses on the topic "Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same". If you can respond to each and every scripture I used to affirm my view that they are indeed one and the same, showing otherwise I would love to hear your opposing evidence.
For starters I would like to see your documented response to my last post dated 7-26-2020.

Thank you.

Kind regards,
RW

I'm sorry, I don't see your post dated 7-26-2020.

[onewithhim]

Dear onewithin,

Please review my responses on the topic "Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same". If you can respond to each and every scripture I used to affirm my view that they are indeed one and the same, showing otherwise I would love to hear your opposing evidence.
For starters I would like to see your documented response to my last post dated 7-26-2020.

Thank you.

Kind regards,
RW

I apologize. I see what you are referring to, and I will respond to your points on the thread that you refer to. I was looking on the same thread as the one I was responding to then. I will go there and read you response dated 7-26-2020.

[onewithhim]

Dear onewithin,

Please review my responses on the topic "Jehovah and Jesus Christ are one and the same". If you can respond to each and every scripture I used to affirm my view that they are indeed one and the same, showing otherwise I would love to hear your opposing evidence.
For starters I would like to see your documented response to my last post dated 7-26-2020.

Thank you.

Kind regards,
RW

I will address your last post on your thread after I speak to the first three Scriptures you post on the first page, since your 7-26 post is extremely long. I'll look at it later when I'm in the mood to go through endless references.

1) Isaiah 43: 3,11: You present these verses, I imagine, to show that Jehovah is the LORD and also that Jesus is known to be "the Lord." In addition, both are called the "Savior." Yes, wherever "the LORD" appears in the Old Testament, that is where the Tetragrammaton appears---YHWH---commonly translated as "Jehovah." So we have two "Lords." I don't think it is stretching the truth to say that yes, Jehovah is LORD and Jesus is Lord, yet they are not the SAME Lord. Jehovah is the Most High (Psalm 83:18 LORD, and Jesus is Lord over all those on the earth that are called "Lord." We can have two Lords who are distinct individuals, and not the same person, the same as we can have two "gods" that are different persons, such as at John 1:1. Jehovah is the first God mentioned and Jesus is the last god mentioned. Jehovah is THE God, the Most High, whereas Jesus is "divine" (like God, or of God, angels also being divine) and an important, highly respected, powerful individual (which is what "god" means).

You are making the point, too, that both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Savior. Jehovah can say that there is no other Savior because it is He that contains all the power and He decides what happens and when. He gives instructions to Jesus as to what to do. Jesus is the means by which Jehovah saves, so to call Jesus a savior is not saying that he is Jehovah. He earns that title because he obeyed Jehovah, the ultimate Savior, and did what Jehovah told him to do.

2) Isaiah 9: 6,7: Verses that take some scrutinizing before making strong statements. Jesus is called "Mighty God." Do you recall that there are no upper case letters in Hebrew? It actually should read "mighty god." We must consider two points concerning "mighty god." First, "god" doesn't always refer to the Most High Jehovah; it can mean ANY powerful, important individual, as Jesus himself brought out (John 10:34-36). Secondly, "mighty god" is interpreted from the Hebrew El Gibbohr. It is different than "El Shaddai," which is used only to refer to God, Jehovah, meaning "Almighty God." Jesus is never referred to as El Shaddai.

So, Jesus is El Gibbohr and NOT El Shaddai. There is only one Almighty God, Jehovah, but other "gods" that are "mighty." Jesus is a mighty god, but not Almighty God. Your inference that they are the same actually falls apart.

[tigger 2]

What is really intended at Is. 9:6?

First, onewithhim has given one probable answer: the words are to be taken in their secondary sense (e.g., 'a mighty god' rather than 'the mighty God').

Another probable answer is that the name, like so many personal names of Israelites, was intended as a praise or description of the Eternal Father, God Almighty, the only true God, Jehovah.

For example,
“JEHU - ‘Jehovah is he.’
(1.) The son of Obed, and father of Azariah (1 Chronicles 2:38) [and three others in scripture]. - Easton’s Bible Dictionary, ‘Jehu,’ from Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ. (Also p. 331, Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House, 1982.)

So four different men (one was a king), worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah, were named ‘He is Jehovah’ in the Holy Scriptures! This popular Israelite name obviously was not intended to describe the person who bore it!

Another important detail about personal names is that those names composed of more than one Hebrew word (e.g., Immanuel; Isaiah; Michael; Jehoshabeath; etc.) is that minor words such as prepositions ('of',' 'in,' 'with', 'on,' etc.) and some verbs such as 'is,' 'are,' etc. are omitted in the scriptures.

For instance, two of the best-known Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his King” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.” And no scholar ever claims that it means that Elimelech himself was "God King."

But perhaps most instructive of all is the compound name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it: “Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace.”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says: “Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

Of course it can also be honestly translated: “The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:
[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means (A)“quick to the plunder; (B) swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: (A)“For unto us a child is born; (B) unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to some trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. It is far from the trinity 'proof' that so many want it to be.

[PinSeeker]

Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.

So you think He lied for shock value? Wow.

Okay, well, grace and peace to you, Brian.

I didn't say lie. YHVH was introduced again to the newly formed Israel as Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh. "I am that which I will be" or I am for short. It was a very important phrase to the Hebrews. He used it to pluck at them for affect.

Well, He said what He meant, and He meant what He said. If that's what you're saying, then I agree. Yes, it was a very important phrase to the Hebrews. Surely, it's a very important phrase to all of us, as well, as we identify intensely with them as God's people. This "phrase" tells us -- or should, anyway -- a great many things about our God, including Who He is, what He is about, and His splendor, holiness, and glory (among other things).

[PinSeeker]

NT (repeated post)

[PinSeeker]

So four different men (one was a king), worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah, were named ‘He is Jehovah’ in the Holy Scriptures!

Yes, but three were what we properly call types and/or shadows, of the true One -- the Messiah -- to come. The Old Testament is filled with these. As Jesus said, all of Scripture is about Him, several times, both directly and indirectly:

DIRECTLY

• Matthew 11:13 -- "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John..."

• Luke 16:29-31 -- "But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ But (Lazarus) said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

• Luke 18:31 -- "Then (Jesus) took the twelve aside and said to them, 'Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.' "

• John 5:46 -- "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me."

INDIRECTLY

• Luke 24:25-32 -- "And (Jesus) said to (the two men whom Jesus spoke to on the road to Emmaus after His resurrection), 'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself... They said to each other, 'Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?' ”

• Hebrews 1 -- "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..."

This popular Israelite name obviously was not intended to describe the person who bore it!

Not by the Israelites themselves, I agree. But God is in charge of all things. Read on for clarification...

So it is clear, even to some trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God. It is far from the trinity 'proof' that so many want it to be.

Well, yeah, the wrong ones... Actually, I would say that they are right and wrong at the same time... right in a certain sense, and wrong in another. To explain, I posted this in another thread, but the term theologians use for most of the things the prophets wrote in the Old Testament is "prophetic foreshortening," which I explained there with the following illustration:
.

When traveling in the United States from east to west on I-70 through the state of Kansas and then through the eastern part of the state of Colorado, the plains seem to be endless. But then, all of a sudden really, you see on the horizon a huge mountain -- actually the Rocky Mountain range. As you get closer and closer, you realize you weren't nearly as close to the mountain(s) as you thought you were. You begin to see layers, and you begin to see that what looked like one huge mountain is actually layers upon layers of smaller mountains with larger layers behind them.

This is the understanding with which we must read all the prophets of the Old Testament (including Daniel, Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, Micah, and others) and John in Revelation. When they wrote their respective prophecies, they were only a great distance away and could only see, figuratively speaking, the one great big mountain. So yes, there is in fact a sense in which they didn't know exactly -- didn't fully grasp -- what God was saying through them; they did not completely understand what they were prophesying because they were not close enough to see all the layers of smaller mountains. This is "prophetic foreshortening."

We, on the other hand, can can see at least many of these layers, which are actually multiple manifestations of what the prophets were predicting over the period referred to by Micah as the "latter days" (Micah 4:1), which is the period from the coming of the Holy Spirit after Jesus's resurrection and ascension to His return (we know this by reading Hebrews 1, specifically verse 2, which says, "...in these last days (God) has spoken to us in His Son..."), the period in which we stand now -- are in the past now, and at least a few are still to come... we are still "approaching" but haven't gotten to them yet. We may even be close to the end of the "layers," or manifestations, but we may not. We can't know for sure (just like the prophets of old in that respect), as only God Himself does. But we should live as if we are, just like the prophets (but ultimately God) tell (tells) us to. And we can see the ultimate, final "Layer," Jesus Himself.

.
And to the point herein, names are very important in Scripture. God's Name is very, very important to Himself, as I'm sure you'll agree. And in lesser but very, very important way than the one Name above all names, God speaks to us and tells us things about Himself in the names of various characters throughout the Bible, especially Jesus Himself:
.

• Take 'Lazarus,' for example; 'Lazarus' literally means "my God has helped." Jesus helped Lazarus, whom He loved -- restored his life, actually, as you know -- by raising His friend from the dead.

• Regarding Jesus Himself, the name 'Immanuel. means "God with us." And the name 'Jesus' means "Yah saves," which must be coupled -- because Scripture itself does -- with the fact that He was given this name "because He..." (Jesus Himself, according to God via His Spirit) "...will save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21-23).

• And you and others deny that Jesus assigns Himself the Name of God (John 8:58), but He does. And He's not lying.

Grace and peace to you, Tigger.

[Overcomer]

It is a mistake to think of Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace as personal names like that of Elimelech. They are titles that describe the character and attributes of the one who bears them. And they are, of course, descriptions of Yahweh. For example, the title “el gibbor” (Mighty God) is used of him in Is. 10:21.

Isaiah is prophesying about a king to come, one who has the attributes of God. No human king ever had all of these attributes – certainly no human king could be Mighty God or Everlasting Father as omnipotence and eternality are characteristics of God only. Jesus is the only being to walk this earth who embodied all four of those titles and who did things only God can do such as forgive sins (Luke 5:17-31).

And look at verse 7 from Isaiah 9:

“Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom”(Is. 9:7).

Luke quotes the angel Gabriel who says of the child that Mary will bear, “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:32-33).

This passage from Isaiah is a prophetic one about the Messiah and, given that the future king is described using the attributes of God, then the Messiah must be God. However, we know that the Bible declares that there is only one God (Is. 44:6; Deut. 6:4). So if Jesus is described as being God, having the attributes of God, including omnipotence and eternality, and the same is said of the Holy Spirit, then we must conclude that God is a Triune God, that is, one God who exists in three persons.