I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.
Jesus' words:
1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)
2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)
3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)
He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)
5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)
6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)
To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)
Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?
Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
JESUS IS NOT GOD
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #191WHAT is heretical and absurd, Checkpoint? I'm kind of slow on the uptake, as I've said. I think what you posted makes a lot of sense.Checkpoint wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:08 pm [Replying to IAMinyou in post #183]
This is a small part of a scripture you posted(I think) IAMinyou.
I have just found an alternative translation with comments.Proverbs 8
22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Quoted below for your consideration.
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way -
Wisdom is not acquired by the Divine Being;
man, and even angels, learn it by slow and progressive degrees;
but in God it is as eternally inherent as any other essential attribute of his nature.
The Targum makes this wisdom a creature, by thus translating the passage: אלהא בראני בריש בריתיה Elaha barani bereish biriteiah, "God created me in the beginning of his creatures." The Syriac is the same.
This is as absurd and heretical as some modern glosses on the same passage.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #192I have already proven it, yet you ignore that proof. I posted in your thread. Did you read my posts?Revelations won wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:22 am Dear Onewithhim,
My position is that Jesus Christ is indeed God the Son.
In support of this position I would suggest you carefully examine my posts in the topic “Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament”.
If you can prove otherwise from the scriptures, I certainly accept your challenge.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #193Dear Onewithhim,
It appears that you missed my last post in the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament", as I see no response to that post. I will paste that post here and welcome your response in the manner requested.
Greetings to JW’s and to all believers in Christ everywhere,
In my original post I submitted the debate premise that Jehovah and Jesus the Christ are indeed one and the same person. I fully expected the JW’s to deny this premise posted, but I admit that I was somewhat surprised to see other believers in Christ take the opposing position held by the JW’s.
I expect that there are many other christians out there who also have searched the scriptures diligently and who also concur with my debate position stated. The scriptures clearly testify that there are three (3) in heaven who bear witness, namely God the Father, the Word (meaning God the Son) and the Holy Ghost or (Spirit). This being a supported fact according to scripture, Then why is there such a diversity and confusion or misunderstanding regarding the true identity of Jehovah and Jesus Christ?
Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.
The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism.
Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:
(Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:)
(1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,)
I submit that in all of the above it is clearly evident that Christ was foreordained by God the Father as part and parcel of the Fathers foreordained plan of salvation and redemption as a vital and necessary atonement and plan of mercy required for our salvation and exaltation.
It is also self evident that God the Son (Christ) created this and other worlds under the direction of God the Father. Although he has many names, it was not until much later that the Great “I AM”was eventually also known as “Jehovah”.
Having performed his antemortal mission as the great Jehovah, he was then became the only begotten Son of God in the flesh to become the “Emmanuel” or “God with us” to provide the great atoning sacrifice to bless all mankind with the resurrection and atonement for sin in fulfillment of the Fathers will.
The following scriptures quoted clearly identify Christ’s divinity, glory, his status a the “Word” of God and his position as the only redeemer for all mankind and identity as God the Son.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Luke 2: 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Psalms 33: 6 By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Isaiah 40: 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
I submit that the above scriptural evidence clearly reaffirms beyond question, Christ’s identity as also being the great Jehovah and creator and savior!
For anyone to argue to the contrary, one must therefore introduce a major dilemma of two (2) creators and two (2) Saviors!
I challenge the JW’s or Any one else who can refute each and every scripture I have used as evidence, to prove that Christ is not the great Jehovah, please feel free to present your debate showing that all the scriptures I have used to be false or wrong. I do not need philosophical or private interpretations. Please provide other scriptures to prove an opposing view.
Kind regards,
RW
It appears that you missed my last post in the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament", as I see no response to that post. I will paste that post here and welcome your response in the manner requested.
Greetings to JW’s and to all believers in Christ everywhere,
In my original post I submitted the debate premise that Jehovah and Jesus the Christ are indeed one and the same person. I fully expected the JW’s to deny this premise posted, but I admit that I was somewhat surprised to see other believers in Christ take the opposing position held by the JW’s.
I expect that there are many other christians out there who also have searched the scriptures diligently and who also concur with my debate position stated. The scriptures clearly testify that there are three (3) in heaven who bear witness, namely God the Father, the Word (meaning God the Son) and the Holy Ghost or (Spirit). This being a supported fact according to scripture, Then why is there such a diversity and confusion or misunderstanding regarding the true identity of Jehovah and Jesus Christ?
Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.
The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism.
Add to this the fact that Christ clearly existed even prior to the foundations of the earth were even created, for he verily was foreordained prior to the creation of this earth:
(Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:)
(1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,)
I submit that in all of the above it is clearly evident that Christ was foreordained by God the Father as part and parcel of the Fathers foreordained plan of salvation and redemption as a vital and necessary atonement and plan of mercy required for our salvation and exaltation.
It is also self evident that God the Son (Christ) created this and other worlds under the direction of God the Father. Although he has many names, it was not until much later that the Great “I AM”was eventually also known as “Jehovah”.
Having performed his antemortal mission as the great Jehovah, he was then became the only begotten Son of God in the flesh to become the “Emmanuel” or “God with us” to provide the great atoning sacrifice to bless all mankind with the resurrection and atonement for sin in fulfillment of the Fathers will.
The following scriptures quoted clearly identify Christ’s divinity, glory, his status a the “Word” of God and his position as the only redeemer for all mankind and identity as God the Son.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Luke 2: 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 3: 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Psalms 33: 6 By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Isaiah 40: 28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
I submit that the above scriptural evidence clearly reaffirms beyond question, Christ’s identity as also being the great Jehovah and creator and savior!
For anyone to argue to the contrary, one must therefore introduce a major dilemma of two (2) creators and two (2) Saviors!
I challenge the JW’s or Any one else who can refute each and every scripture I have used as evidence, to prove that Christ is not the great Jehovah, please feel free to present your debate showing that all the scriptures I have used to be false or wrong. I do not need philosophical or private interpretations. Please provide other scriptures to prove an opposing view.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #194I can unseat your position with this first so-called scripture you quote. This scripture does not appear in many versions because it is a corruption. It is known that it was added by someone in later times, and is not in earlier manuscripts. Seeing as you are wrong right out of the starting gate, I am taking my time in responding to any of your plethora of other scriptures you are trying to use to prove your spurious point. I'll begin the arduous task of going through all of your points later, having psyched myself up to spend some time explaining your error to you.Revelations won wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:22 pm The scriptures clearly testify that there are three (3) in heaven who bear witness, namely God the Father, the Word (meaning God the Son) and the Holy Ghost or (Spirit). This being a supported fact according to scripture, Then why is there such a diversity and confusion or misunderstanding regarding the true identity of Jehovah and Jesus Christ?
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #195The basis of misunderstand does indeed come from the "the great Apostasy." That started toward the end of the first century. John was still alive and said that the "antichrist" existed even then, so apostates within the churches had begun even in his day to teach lies. (Acts 20:29,30; I John 4:3b) The Apostasy was full-blown from the beginning of the 2nd century on, gaining particularly large footholds in the 4th century.Revelations won wrote: ↑Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:22 pm Dear Onewithhim,
Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.
The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism.
Yes, man-made creeds have replaced sound scriptural teaching. I don't really understand what you are trying to say when you say the s "creed" attempts to create a monotheistic God to replace the "Godhead." John 17:3 is a creed?? It certainly isn't man-made. Could you elaborate some more about that?
How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism? Jehovah is speaking to His Son, the archangel who became Jesus, and possibly other angels. Where in that verse does it show us that God is polytheistic? The term "us" can mean anything, and, as I said, it undoubtedly refers to Jehovah speaking to subordinate Jesus and the subordinate angels. I am looking forward to your answers to questions I have asked you here.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #196Dear Onewithhim,
Thank you for your response to my post.
Can you please list all of the Scriptures in the Bible which you claim are corrupted? Also can you give me the dates when corrupted and by whom?
So please tell me, in the Godhead, how many witnesses there are in Heaven according to your understanding?
Also, did God the Father Create the earth or did God the Son created the earth under the direction of God the Father?
I do not opinions or philosophy, but rather scriptural evidence to prove your points.
Kind regards,
RW
Thank you for your response to my post.
Can you please list all of the Scriptures in the Bible which you claim are corrupted? Also can you give me the dates when corrupted and by whom?
So please tell me, in the Godhead, how many witnesses there are in Heaven according to your understanding?
Also, did God the Father Create the earth or did God the Son created the earth under the direction of God the Father?
I do not opinions or philosophy, but rather scriptural evidence to prove your points.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #197[Replying to Revelations won in post #196]
It's only courteous and fair for you to answer the questions I asked of you before I venture to answer your requests.
Here they are once again:
1) How is John 17:3 a "man-made creed"?
2) How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism?
.
It's only courteous and fair for you to answer the questions I asked of you before I venture to answer your requests.
Here they are once again:
1) How is John 17:3 a "man-made creed"?
2) How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism?
.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #198RW, when you answer my questions then we can continue the discussion. You asked me questions without having answered my questions.
Thank you for taking the time to do that.
.
Thank you for taking the time to do that.
.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #199Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Dear Onewithhim,
“Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism.”
Onewithhim responded:
“The basis of misunderstand does indeed come from the "the great Apostasy." That started toward the end of the first century. John was still alive and said that the "antichrist" existed even then, so apostates within the churches had begun even in his day to teach lies. (Acts 20:29,30; I John 4:3b) The Apostasy was full-blown from the beginning of the 2nd century on, gaining particularly large footholds in the 4th century.
My response:
Onewithhim, I agree with you that the apostasy was full blown from the beginning of the 2nd century forward. And, yes there were substantial footholds gained in the 3rd and 4th centuries.
Onewithhim also said: “Yes, man-made creeds have replaced sound scriptural teaching. I don't really understand what you are trying to say when you say the s "creed" attempts to create a monotheistic God to replace the "Godhead." John 17:3 is a creed?? It certainly isn't man-made. Could you elaborate some more about that?
My response:
I did not claim that John 17:3 was a man made creed.
At least we are in agreement that man-made creeds have replaced sound scriptural teaching.
I will strive to correct perceived misunderstandings regarding John 17:3. Perhaps we should start by looking at the full chapter of John 17.
“John 17:
1"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"
2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
I think one should carefully observe the Jesus in speaking to his Father clearly identifies that he also had glory with the Father before the world was, and that He under the direction of the Father created the world.
Thus he clearly existed before the foundations of the world were even laid.
You should also observe the in this chapter 17, Christ clearly demonstrates that his disciples should also be one as he is one with the Father, that they also may be one with him.
He indeed is God the Son.
He indeed did the will of his Father.
Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect became the author of eternal salvation to all those that believe in him.
Perhaps the greatest difficulty is that so many fail to clearly know God the Father and Jesus Christ. Many fail to understand the Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ of the New Testament. If you carefully follow all that I have presented in the topic “Jehovah of the OT is Jesus Christ of the New Testament”, you will find that I have amply demonstrated this to be the case.
You said:
“How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism? Jehovah is speaking to His Son, the archangel who became Jesus, and possibly other angels. Where in that verse does it show us that God is polytheistic? The term "us" can mean anything, and, as I said, it undoubtedly refers to Jehovah speaking to subordinate Jesus and the subordinate angels. I am looking forward to your answers to questions I have asked you here.”
My response:
I do not find the scriptural statement that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Could you please clarify with scriptural evidence that so clearly states this to be the case? Or is this just another man-made doctrine?
Perhaps you can explain the following found in Daniel chapter 7:
Daniel 7:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Onewithhim, now you have my preliminary responses to your questions. Now let’s hear from you.
Kind regards,
RW
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Dear Onewithhim,
“Is not much of the basis of misunderstanding attributed to “the great apostasy”?
Has the “doctrine” taught in the scriptures in several points been replaced by “man made” creeds, traditions, and philosophies of man?
The scriptures declare that “(John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” I would ask, does a “creed” exist which makes it impossible to “know” the clear identity and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost? This creed attempts to create a monotheistic god which would replace the “Godhead” stated in the scriptures.
I would submit that according to the scriptures a monotheistic god does not exist. For example In:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The forgoing statement from God clearly refutes the false concept of monotheism.”
Onewithhim responded:
“The basis of misunderstand does indeed come from the "the great Apostasy." That started toward the end of the first century. John was still alive and said that the "antichrist" existed even then, so apostates within the churches had begun even in his day to teach lies. (Acts 20:29,30; I John 4:3b) The Apostasy was full-blown from the beginning of the 2nd century on, gaining particularly large footholds in the 4th century.
My response:
Onewithhim, I agree with you that the apostasy was full blown from the beginning of the 2nd century forward. And, yes there were substantial footholds gained in the 3rd and 4th centuries.
Onewithhim also said: “Yes, man-made creeds have replaced sound scriptural teaching. I don't really understand what you are trying to say when you say the s "creed" attempts to create a monotheistic God to replace the "Godhead." John 17:3 is a creed?? It certainly isn't man-made. Could you elaborate some more about that?
My response:
I did not claim that John 17:3 was a man made creed.
At least we are in agreement that man-made creeds have replaced sound scriptural teaching.
I will strive to correct perceived misunderstandings regarding John 17:3. Perhaps we should start by looking at the full chapter of John 17.
“John 17:
1"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"
2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
I think one should carefully observe the Jesus in speaking to his Father clearly identifies that he also had glory with the Father before the world was, and that He under the direction of the Father created the world.
Thus he clearly existed before the foundations of the world were even laid.
You should also observe the in this chapter 17, Christ clearly demonstrates that his disciples should also be one as he is one with the Father, that they also may be one with him.
He indeed is God the Son.
He indeed did the will of his Father.
Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect became the author of eternal salvation to all those that believe in him.
Perhaps the greatest difficulty is that so many fail to clearly know God the Father and Jesus Christ. Many fail to understand the Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ of the New Testament. If you carefully follow all that I have presented in the topic “Jehovah of the OT is Jesus Christ of the New Testament”, you will find that I have amply demonstrated this to be the case.
You said:
“How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism? Jehovah is speaking to His Son, the archangel who became Jesus, and possibly other angels. Where in that verse does it show us that God is polytheistic? The term "us" can mean anything, and, as I said, it undoubtedly refers to Jehovah speaking to subordinate Jesus and the subordinate angels. I am looking forward to your answers to questions I have asked you here.”
My response:
I do not find the scriptural statement that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Could you please clarify with scriptural evidence that so clearly states this to be the case? Or is this just another man-made doctrine?
Perhaps you can explain the following found in Daniel chapter 7:
Daniel 7:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Onewithhim, now you have my preliminary responses to your questions. Now let’s hear from you.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD
Post #200I have always said that I believe that Jesus had glory with the Father even before the world was. Yes, his Father GAVE him that glory, as he said. I have said more than once that Jesus existed before the world was, and, further, I explained what "the world" means: It is the world-wide community of people alienated from God, begun after Adam turned against Jehovah. It does not refer to the planet. It doesn't refer to the planet, but that doesn't take away from the point that Jesus existed for untold eons before the universe was created. All this does NOT show that Jesus is "God the Son."Revelations won wrote: ↑Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:18 am Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Dear Onewithhim,
I think one should carefully observe the Jesus in speaking to his Father clearly identifies that he also had glory with the Father before the world was, and that He under the direction of the Father created the world.
Thus he clearly existed before the foundations of the world were even laid.
You should also observe the in this chapter 17, Christ clearly demonstrates that his disciples should also be one as he is one with the Father, that they also may be one with him.
He indeed is God the Son.
He indeed did the will of his Father.
Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect became the author of eternal salvation to all those that believe in him.
Perhaps the greatest difficulty is that so many fail to clearly know God the Father and Jesus Christ. Many fail to understand the Jehovah of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ of the New Testament. If you carefully follow all that I have presented in the topic “Jehovah of the OT is Jesus Christ of the New Testament”, you will find that I have amply demonstrated this to be the case.
You said:
“How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute" the concept of monotheism? Jehovah is speaking to His Son, the archangel who became Jesus, and possibly other angels. Where in that verse does it show us that God is polytheistic? The term "us" can mean anything, and, as I said, it undoubtedly refers to Jehovah speaking to subordinate Jesus and the subordinate angels. I am looking forward to your answers to questions I have asked you here.”
My response:
I do not find the scriptural statement that Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Could you please clarify with scriptural evidence that so clearly states this to be the case? Or is this just another man-made doctrine?
Perhaps you can explain the following found in Daniel chapter 7:
Daniel 7:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11
I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Onewithhim, now you have my preliminary responses to your questions. Now let’s hear from you.
Kind regards,
RW
You have not demonstrated that Jesus is Jehovah. Far from it. You have failed to answer my questions with solid, scriptural back-up.
I didn't mention Michael in any of my statements or questions to you, so why bring him up now? You are diverting the conversation. And you didn't answer the question: How does Genesis 3:22 "clearly refute the concept of monotheism"? Can you answer with concise arguments that don't tangent off the central issue?
.
