JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

At John 8:58 Jesus did provide the snakes (he called the Pharisees that!) with the truth about how long he had been alive, which was their question to him. They were indignant at his conversation concerning Abraham, and said, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" The issue in this case was Jesus' AGE; how long had he been alive. It wasn't at that time a question of WHO he said he was.

So he told them how long he had been alive: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born."

That is the best translation, and it makes the most sense when considering just what the religous leaders had asked him.

[onewithhim]

Did anyone read my posts #6 and also #10? It seems that somehow they have been left out of the discussion about John 8:58.

Thank you.

[PinSeeker]

Well, my favorite verse is, after all, this one!:

Micah 6:

8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly a with your God.

And blessings to you and yours, my fellow-pilgrim.

Yeah. Love that verse. It's actually my desktop wallpaper right now.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

...he told them how long he had been alive: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I existed before Abraham was born."

In a very elemental, short-sighted sense, yes. But, like many (if not most) things Jesus said, what He was really saying in John 8:58 is far, far deeper and far, far more profound than that. Infinitely more. The effect of His reply is, "I am from all eternity. I have existed before all ages," the exact same effect as God's reply to Moses on Sinai, which is precisely why He replied as He did.

That is the best translation, and it makes the most sense when considering just what the religous leaders had asked him.

Nope.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 34 by PinSeeker]

Nope.

The religious leaders were objecting to his bringing Abraham into the conversation, and asked how could he know Abraham since he was not even 50 years old. It was about the length of his life, not who he was, in this discussion. He told them in good, proper, idiomatic Greek that he existed even before Abraham was born.

There need not be anything "more profound" in his reply than that.

If it was such a profound truth that he is YHWH, it certainly would be spelled out in the Word of God to humans.....but it is conveniently a "mystery"! I don't buy that. Where is this "profound" truth that Jesus is God Almighty in other things that he says?

Where is this profound idea here? "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)

Whoa! Not a single hint that He is God!

Where is the profound idea that Jesus is really God here? "The one who conquers--I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from MY GOD, and my own new name." (Revelation 3:12) Does that sound, in any way, like Jesus wants us to know that he is the God who spoke to Moses at Exodus 3:14?

That doesn't add up.

[onewithhim]

I am respectfully waiting for a comment on my last posts. I welcome all thoughtful points-of-view, and am highly interested in what other people think, especially if they take the time to actually read my posts.

[PinSeeker]

That doesn't add up.

I realize this is not the kind of response you are looking for, but, well, if one looks at things in such limited way, then, in that very limited way, you're right, they don't add up. But it's a very limited way of looking at it.

Seek with all your heart, and you will find. [Jeremiah 29:13]

Grace and peace to you, onewithhim.

[Checkpoint]

I am respectfully waiting for a comment on my last posts. I welcome all thoughtful points-of-view, and am highly interested in what other people think, especially if they take the time to actually read my posts.

Hi, onewithhim, greetings.

I have heard you, knowing this is not the first time you have made this request.

To which of your last posts do you now refer to?

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 38 by Checkpoint]

6, 10, and 35

[Checkpoint]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 545#990545]Replying to post 35 by onewithhiml]]

Nope.

The religious leaders were objecting to his bringing Abraham into the conversation, and asked how could he know Abraham since he was not even 50 years old. It was about the length of his life, not who he was, in this discussion. He told them in good, proper, idiomatic Greek that he existed even before Abraham was born.

There need not be anything "more profound" in his reply than that.

If it was such a profound truth that he is YHWH, it certainly would be spelled out in the Word of God to humans.....but it is conveniently a "mystery"! I don't buy that. Where is this "profound" truth that Jesus is God Almighty in other things that he says?

Where is this profound idea here? "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)

Whoa! Not a single hint that He is God!

Where is the profound idea that Jesus is really God here? "The one who conquers--I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from MY GOD, and my own new name." (Revelation 3:12) Does that sound, in any way, like Jesus wants us to know that he is the God who spoke to Moses at Exodus 3:14?

That doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up is the God who spoke to Moses. The very One who told him that no human could see His face and stay alive.

The One who told him His name is "I am who I am" and/or "I will be who I will be".

What does that tell you' if anything?

It tells me He is full of surprises because He cannot be put in a box.

Some of those surprises will come on Judgment Day and beyond.

As for Jesus, as His Son, is the express image of His person, cannot be put in a box either. So many cryptic words and concepts. Does anyone really know what he meant by each of them?

"Before Abraham was, I am"? ?

Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 13 that:

When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Grace and peace.