JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

Yes, you have said this before and I have shown that Jesus STILL has a God even though he is BACK IN HEAVEN. You seem to ignore that fact.

No, I agree with it, actually, but the duality of Jesus's nature has always been and will always be the case. If anyone is ignoring anything here, it's you.

Therefore I am not addressing you when I ask these questions.

Understood. If you can't get what you want to hear, run away, right?

Hopefully someone else will answer.

Yes, and hopefully that person will give you the same answers -- the correct ones -- that I have. But regardless of that, we have all we need from God Himself -- all three Persons -- both in word and deed.

Grace and peace to you.

It is your opinion that Jesus has a "dual nature" even in heaven. I have seen nothing to corroborate that idea, anywhere.

And the only reason I "run away" is because you say the same stuff over and over, and that's not necesssary. I heard you the first time, so I concentrate on hopefully hearing what other people have to say.


"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and with all your vital force." (Deut. 6:4,5; NWT, Young's Literal Translation, The Divine Name KJV, ASB)

Not three. One.

.

[PinSeeker]

It is your opinion that Jesus has a "dual nature" even in heaven.

Well no, not really. It is a fact -- which you yourself have attested to -- that Jesus changes not and indeed is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). You asked me once -- rhetorically, presumably -- if I remembered that. Well, yes, I remember it and am conscious of it and act on it every single day. Anyway, this was obviously the case when He walked the earth, and by inference cannot be different at any time in the past, now, or any time in the future.

I have seen nothing to corroborate that idea, anywhere.

Right, but only because you refuse to. But you have, actually. Per above, you've even stated your assent to it. So now you're contradicting yourself, really, albeit possibly unknowingly.

And the only reason I "run away" is because you say the same stuff over and over, and that's not necesssary. I heard you the first time, so I concentrate on hopefully hearing what other people have to say.

LOL! Hearing the truth many times over is necessary for some... Actually, I would say it's necessary for us all.

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and with all your vital force." (Deut. 6:4,5; NWT, Young's Literal Translation, The Divine Name KJV, ASB)

Not three. One.

Oh, but three and one at the same time. He is One in three and Three in one. Jehovah God is holy, holy, and holy.

Grace and to you.

[onewithhim]

Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty. Philippians 2:6 shows that he never even gave any consideration to it (if you look at several modern translations). In fact, he said that he HAS a God (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; also I Corinthians 15:24).

.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty. Philippians 2:6 shows that he never even gave any consideration to it (if you look at several modern translations). In fact, he said that he HAS a God (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12; also I Corinthians 15:24).

You're making a distinction where there is none (which the Word affirms over and over again). But as I've said many times, you are more than welcome to your opinion. Maybe the Spirit will work in you in the Father's time so that so that your opinion will change. Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

Jesus spoke of being anointed BY GOD [Jehovah] at Isaiah 61:1,2, applying that scripture to himself (see Luke 4:16-21).

Isaiah 61:1,2:

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on me, because Jehovah did anoint me to proclaim tidings to the humble, He sent me to bind the broken of heart, to proclaim to captives liberty,and to bound ones an opening of bands. To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Jehovah, and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all mourners." (Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)

Clearly, Jehovah and Jesus are not the same...Jesus is not 1/3 of Jehovah, they are two Persons---God and the Son of God. Jehovah tells Jesus what to do, and He SENDS Jesus. God would not have to "send" himself. That doesn't make sense. God is Jehovah and He calls all the shots. Jesus OBEYS.

[Revelations won]

Dear Pin Seeker,

I think that the answer to the OP view is missed because people fail to understand the true nature of God.

For example, can you fully comprehend and clearly explain the doctrine of "the trinity"?

Was the doctrine of the "trinity" given by revelation from God or was it a doctrine engineered by man?

Are there incomprehensible mysteries associated with this doctrine?

We are taught in John 17:3 And this is life Eternal that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. People could believe anything regarding God, but to have eternal life one must actually KNOW God.

You should remember that Christ was foreordained to be the redeemer before the foundations of the world were even laid.

You should also remember that Christ also taught us that he'd had GLORY with the Father before he came to this earth to be our savior and redeemer. This also demonstrates his divine mission and existence with the Father before mortality.

Christ also testified the HIS FATHER was GREATER THAN HE, thus establishing his position as God the SON.

His whole mortal mission was to bring us unto the father as the ONLY mediator between God the Father and mortal man.

You should also remember that in Genesis Chapter 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil....," thus clearly establishing the "Godhead" as consisting of more than one.

Can you deny what Christ taught in the NT or can you deny what God theFather taught in the OT?

Kind regards
RW

[Revelations won]

We all should also remember what the Apostle Paul taught in Philipians:


.Philippians 2:9-11 says — Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

Dear Pin Seeker,

I think that the answer to the OP view is missed because people fail to understand the true nature of God.

For example, can you fully comprehend and clearly explain the doctrine of "the trinity"?

Was the doctrine of the "trinity" given by revelation from God or was it a doctrine engineered by man?

Are there incomprehensible mysteries associated with this doctrine?

We are taught in John 17:3 And this is life Eternal that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. People could believe anything regarding God, but to have eternal life one must actually KNOW God.

You should remember that Christ was foreordained to be the redeemer before the foundations of the world were even laid.

You should also remember that Christ also taught us that he'd had GLORY with the Father before he came to this earth to be our savior and redeemer. This also demonstrates his divine mission and existence with the Father before mortality.

Christ also testified the HIS FATHER was GREATER THAN HE, thus establishing his position as God the SON.

His whole mortal mission was to bring us unto the father as the ONLY mediator between God the Father and mortal man.

You should also remember that in Genesis Chapter 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil....," thus clearly establishing the "Godhead" as consisting of more than one.

Can you deny what Christ taught in the NT or can you deny what God theFather taught in the OT?

Kind regards
RW

Revelations won.....A very nice post. I heartily agree with everything you said, with just one exception. It is often said that Jesus was purposed to die for us before the planet was created, but I don't think that is what the scriptures truly mean. When referring to the "world," I believe that the reference is to the world of fallen mankind, as spoken of, for example, at I John 2:15-17.

Adam and Eve were created sinless and perfect. If they had remained faithful, they'd still be here, right? So there was no need for Jesus to die at that point. It was AFTER they sinned that God immediately planned for the redemption of mankind. So it was before the founding of the world alienated from God that Jesus was designated to die for mankind's sins, since we all inherited sin from Adam. (Romans 5:12) That alienated world started off with Cain, and continues today. Upon reflection, does this sound reasonable?

.

[PinSeeker]

Jesus spoke of being anointed BY GOD [Jehovah] at Isaiah 61:1,2, applying that scripture to himself (see Luke 4:16-21).

Agreed. I have never said differently.

Clearly, Jehovah and Jesus are not the same...

God the Father and God the Son are not the same in Person, no. The Persons of Jehovah are distinct, but they are exactly the same in their essence. As Paul says:

• "(Christ Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." [Colossians 1:15-20, emphasis added)]

Jesus is not 1/3 of Jehovah...

Well, Jesus is 100% of Jehovah, as is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. And that makes perfect sense, despite your objections. Jesus is one of three distinct Persons, Who together in perfect unity make up the triune Jehovah, Who is one. This is what Jehovah's Witnesses cannot accept. Nevertheless, it is true.

...they are two Persons---God and the Son of God.

Sure. I've said this many times.

Jehovah tells Jesus what to do, and He SENDS Jesus.

God the Father sends Jesus. And Jesus sends the Holy Spirit. But both proceed, or come forth, from the Father and are thus fully and wholly of the Father. So Jehovah is not merely God the Father, but also God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. We could also say Jehovah the Father, Jehovah the Son, and Jehovah the Holy Spirit. Together, they are One in Three and Three in One. Like I said, the Watchtower Society will not accept this. Nevertheless, it is true.

God would not have to "send" himself.

<chuckles> Jehovah God did indeed send Himself, as Jesus is the visible manifestation of Jehovah on earth; God's presence is portrayed through a natural occurrence in the Person of Jesus. Jesus is the Shekinah Glory of God. The word shekinah is a Hebrew name meaning “dwelling” or “one who dwells.” Shekinah Glory means “He caused to dwell,” referring to the divine presence of God in the Person of Jesus Christ. If we look back at God's covenant with Abram, this is exactly what God promised to do. He covenanted with Abram to fulfill BOTH His end and Abram's (and Abram's progeny's) end if either failed to keep it perfectly. Well God, of course, never fails, but Abram and his progeny did, and still do. So God had to fulfill Abram's (and his progeny's) side of the covenant by sacrificing Himself -- in the Person of Jesus, so that we might be redeemed and thereby reconciled to Him. And Paul reiterates this truth many times in his letters, particularly in Philippians 2...

• "For, let this mind be in you that [is] also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty Himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, He humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross..." [Philippians 2:5-8]

...and Colossians 1 (again):

• "(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross." [Colossians 1:15-20, emphasis added]

That doesn't make sense.

Being able to make sense of something is quite a subjective thing to us as individuals. But true wisdom is not subject to the beholder.

God is Jehovah and He calls all the shots. Jesus OBEYS.

Sure. As I've said many times, the three distinct Persons of the triune Jehovah have distinct roles, and together they are One, serving one purpose.

[PinSeeker]

RW, I don't know if you've been following along or not, but it seems not. You are retreading ground we've already covered several times over in this conversation (and the other current thread, which I consider also a part of this conversation):

I think that the answer to the OP view is missed because people fail to understand the true nature of God.

Much agree.

...can you fully comprehend and clearly explain the doctrine of "the trinity"?

Well, no one can really attain to the very high knowledge of God, as such knowledge is too wonderful for us (David, Psalm 139:6). His ways or not our ways, His thoughts not our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). But what can be known about God is plain to all of us, because God has shown it to all of us (Paul, Romans 1:19). How has He shown it to us? Well, by speaking to us and telling us. How Has he spoken to us and told us? As the writer of Hebrews says: God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son... (Who) is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature.

Was the doctrine of the "trinity" given by revelation from God or was it a doctrine engineered by man?

God clearly portrays Himself in the form of three distinct Persons. Christ Himself is particularly clear in John 13-17.

Are there incomprehensible mysteries associated with this doctrine?

Sure.

We are taught in John 17:3 And this is life Eternal that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. People could believe anything regarding God, but to have eternal life one must actually KNOW God.

Absolutely. And we can know God by knowing Jesus. And the Holy Spirit is our Helper in doing so.

You should remember that Christ was foreordained to be the redeemer before the foundations of the world were even laid.

Absolutely.

You should also remember that Christ also taught us that he'd had GLORY with the Father before he came to this earth to be our savior and redeemer. This also demonstrates his divine mission and existence with the Father before mortality.

Absolutely.

Christ also testified the HIS FATHER was GREATER THAN HE, thus establishing his position as God the SON.

Yes, in His position as man, having emptied Himself of His status as God and took on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men -- which does not mean that He no longer had it, but that He laid it aside for a time -- in order to be, in human form, humbled of His own accord, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross, for our sake (Philippians 2)... to accomplish our salvation.

His whole mortal mission was to bring us unto the father as the ONLY mediator between God the Father and mortal man.

Absolutely. But no mere mortal man could accomplish this.

You should also remember that in Genesis Chapter 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil....," thus clearly establishing the "Godhead" as consisting of more than one.

Well sure. Are you trying to make my points for me? Because you are...

Can you deny what Christ taught in the NT or can you deny what God theFather taught in the OT?

Neither, of course. But there are some here that are doing one or the other -- really both. Are you arguing for the trune nature of Jehovah? Or are you arguing against it? Because it seems the former is the case...

Grace and peace to you, RW.