JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Difflugia]

Maybe I missed something in this "I am" discussion. Wouldn't the Hebrew trump the 70? Ehyeh ashur Ehyeh? I am that which(what I) I will be?

It depends on the question. If it's about what the Elohist meant when he wrote the story of the burning bush or what a Hebrew-reading audience would understand, then yes.

If, on the other hand, the question is how a Hellenistic author writing for a Hellenistic audience might quote the Old Testament, then no.

The recent discussion is over whether or not John's quotation of Jesus is in turn quoting Exodus 3:14. Since John wrote in Koine for a Hellenistic audience, we're in the latter situation.

[tigger2]

Although there are a few quotations of John 8:58 in the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, these earliest Christians of the first through the third centuries A. D. never show any understanding of ego eimi there other than that of existence. We see no connection with the words of John 8:58 meaning that Jesus is the so-called “I Am� (YHWH) of the OT.

And you will even find the use of 'I AM' applied by the early Christian writers to themselves.

Saint Augustine (354-430 A.D.) is considered by much of trinitarian Christendom to be the best of trinitarian scholars and “the greatest of the Fathers of the Church�! To show Augustine’s conception of the absolute foolishness of the “I Am� argument, we can look to p. 41 of On the Two Cities where Augustine says about himself:

“I am most certain that I AM, that I know it, and that I delight in it.� And, “certainly I am not deceived in this knowledge that I AM.� - On the Two Cities - 'Selections from The City of God,' p. 41, F. W. Strothmann (ed.), Frederick Ungar Publishing Co., New York, 1957. (Also found in the original The City of God, Book 11, Ch. 26.) [Emphasis mine – T2]

None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarian Athanasius of the 4th century) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson.

Isn’t it ridiculous to think that the very earliest Christian scholars, including Origen himself, who knew the scriptures and the Bible Greek language better than anyone today, had no understanding of an “I AM = title of God� concept at John 8:58, but, somehow, a few modern trinitarians have ‘discovered’ it?
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Ex 3:14, Septuagint (Brenton):
καὶ εἶπεν � θεὸς π�ὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων Ἐγώ εἰμι � ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ��εῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσ�αήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με π�ὸς ὑμᾶς. = "God said to Moses 'I am the being.'"

Again, this has nothing to do with his name meaning "I am" or ego eimi. It's no more a 'proof' of the 'I Am' trinity argument than my saying 'I am Tigger2'! "I am" is used here (as in most cases) as the subject and verb of the clause and is no part of the name! Instead, in this case, the name follows the verb as a predicate noun.

Do you really think that Joseph was claiming to be YHWH God when he said,

�γώ εἰμι Ἰωσήφ· = "I AM Joseph." ?? - Gen. 45:3, Septuagint (Brenton).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 102 by tigger2]

Excellent explanation concerning the fudging-up of the translation of John 8:58. There is so much evidence to the contrary of thinking that Jesus was referring to Exodus 3:14.

And I wonder why people don't look at John 9:9 where the man who was blind uses the exact words Jesus used: ego eimi. So if using those words means that the person using them is God, then the man who was blind is also God.


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[Eloi]

I think it is clear: there is not any "I AM" as a title of God in Exo. 3:14, neither in the Hebrew Scriptures nor in the Greek LXX ... and there is not that title of God in NT either.

OneWithHim:

First of all, Exodus doesn't even say "I Am." Bible translators have rendered those words in Exodus 3:14 as "I Will Be What I Will Be," (Leeser) or "I Will Become Whatever I Please" (Rotherham), or "I Will Be There Howsoever I Will Be There" (Everett Fox). So you have translators who give a totally different meaning to "'Ehyeh 'Asher 'Ehyeh," and not "I Am."

Eloi:

�γώ εἰμι � ὢν is a sentence, not a phrase. The first part of that sentence (�γώ εἰμι) is just a way to address to the second part. Continue reading Exo. 3:14 in LXX. There is not repetition of the �γώ εἰμι:

καὶ εἶπεν � θεὸς π�ὸς Μωυσῆν _ And God said to Moses:
Ἐγώ εἰμι � ὤν· _ "I am the One who is"
καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ��εῖς _ and He said: "This you will say
τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισ�αηλ _ to the Sons of Israel
Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με π�ὸς ὑμᾶς. _ the One who is has sent me to you."

I do not understand why you insist so much on a part of the sentence that does not work as part of a supposed title of God, neither there (in Exo. 3:14 in LXX) nor in the NT.

tigger2:

None of the earliest Christian writers (even up to, and including, super-trinitarian Athanasius of the 4th century) when discussing John 8:58 taught that the ego eimi of that verse meant any more than existence. None of them considered it to be a title or name of God (or of Jesus, for that matter)! Even when trinitarians, such as Athanasius, began to come on the scene (late 3rd century or early 4th century), they still used John 8:58 only as evidence of Christ’s earlier existence. - e.g., Origen, p. 643, Vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Roberts & Donaldson.

Isn’t it ridiculous to think that the very earliest Christian scholars, including Origen himself, who knew the scriptures and the Bible Greek language better than anyone today, had no understanding of an “I AM = title of God� concept at John 8:58, but, somehow, a few modern trinitarians have ‘discovered’ it?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 104 by Eloi]

True, there is not a title of "I Am" for God anywhere in the Bible. Exodus 3:14 sets up the phrase leading into what the actual name of God is.....telling us basically the essence of His personal name, which is stated in Exodus 3:15, and the essence of His name is "I WILL become whatsoever I will become," to cause His will to take place.

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[onewithhim]

How many times did Jesus defer to his Father as the One with all the power and authority, and the One who GAVE him what authority he had? How often did Jesus look to God, his Father, for help and strength? Who did Jesus call "the only true God"? Was it himself? I don't think anyone could say that after reading the Scriptures.

John 5:19
Matthew 28:18
Matthew 26:36-44
John 17:1-26


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[onewithhim]

Why did Jesus pray to God if he was God? God would not pray to any body. He would be at the top already. Yet he prayed fervently to "the one who could save him" out of adversity. (Hebrews 5:7) God would need no one to save him out of anything. Jesus also obeyed God. If he was God, would he obey anybody else? That boggles the mind. It is only with twisted imaginings that we can figure that Jesus was God and he prayed to God to help him, but carried on in obedience to what God told him to do. Huh? It's very simple to look at it they way Jesus always tried to get people to do: Jehovah is "the only true God," (John 17:3) and from Jehovah comes life and benefits and happiness. (John 3:16; Isaiah 48:17,18)

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[onewithhim]

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, 'Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: as thou hast GIVEN him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:1-3, KJV)

Apparently Jesus thought that his Father, Jehovah, is "the only true God," for he differentiated between God and himself. He did not include himself in what he referred to as "God."

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[onewithhim]

Would anyone comment on the last few posts above concerning Jesus could not be God for the reasons outlined there?

[PinSeeker]

Would anyone comment on the last few posts above concerning Jesus could not be God for the reasons outlined there?

Sure, OWH.

The simple (although it's not "simple" at all, but quite profound) fact is that Jesus came to be our model for what we should do, how we should live -- the perfect man, if you will. In that light -- but certainly not to trivialize it in any way -- He referred to God the Father as His God. In that light He also fulfilled the Law perfectly, by loving God with all His heart, mind, soul, and strength (and His neighbor as Himself, of course). So, we are to be like Jesus.

However, in the light that He is also fully God, He finished His work of redemption by laying down His own life for His friends, demonstrating His perfect love... that He in fact IS love, which John says of God (1 John 4). Moreover, He became sin; He Who was sinless, became sin for us so that we who are sinful might become righteousness when we are united to him (2 Corinthians 5:21). Only God Himself -- in the form of man -- was able and qualified to do this.

This is the simple -- but certainly not simplistic -- answer to every objection you have raised (or will). Maybe one day you will hear and not reject, but of course that's a work of which only the Holy Spirit is capable. My job is merely to proclaim.

Grace and peace to you.