JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

Nice attempt, Pinseeker, but you still failed to address specifically the scriptures I was asking about. I asked you or anyone to comment on those verses.

Here they are again:

John 5:19 (Had to LEARN, even before coming here)
Matthew 28:18 (He was GIVEN authority)
Matthew 26: 36-44 (He was begging for help; God does not need to beg for anything)
John 17:1-26 (Shows clearly that only the Father is God and has a position higher than anyone including Jesus)
Hebrews 5:7 (If he was God he could save himself, right?)


.

[PinSeeker]

Nice attempt, Pinseeker, but you still failed to address specifically the scriptures I was asking about. I asked you or anyone to comment on those verses.

Here they are again:

John 5:19 (Had to LEARN, even before coming here)
Matthew 28:18 (He was GIVEN authority)
Matthew 26: 36-44 (He was begging for help; God does not need to beg for anything)
John 17:1-26 (Shows clearly that only the Father is God and has a position higher than anyone including Jesus)
Hebrews 5:7 (If he was God he could save himself, right?)

Well, I did, but one hears what he wants to hear. But specifically:

John 5:19 -- The "even before coming here" part is yours and yours only. This verse merely indicates following in the will of the Father. And because He proceeds from the Father (which clearly indicates His oneness with the Father and that He, though distinct in Person, is God), which He says of Himself (and the Holy Spirit) in John 14, He can do no other, even in the form of man.

Matthew 28:18 -- Surely you are not insinuating that God the Father has no authority either in heaven or earth anymore. Surely.

Matthew 26:36-44 -- Perhaps you overlook (or ignore) verse 41 ("The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.") This is a clear differentiation between His Godliness and His humanity, both of which are present in fullness in Jesus.

John 17:1-26 -- John 17 shows both that God has a "position" higher than any man including -- in the form of man such that He is -- Jesus. But in that same chapter (really chapters 13 through 17, because it's all one discourse), Jesus also clearly sets forth the triune nature of God (Father, Son, Spirit). Neither can be ignored; both must be -- should be, anyway -- accepted.

Hebrews 5:7 -- Apparently you skip over "In the days of His flesh" as if those words don't exist, much less as if they are not the antecedent clause of that sentence. His life in the form of man is clearly and distinctly in view here, and therefore the consistency in everything I have said in response to you throughout this conversation. The beginning of verse 8 clearly indicates the contrast ("Although he was a son"). And incidentally, verse 8 also clearly refutes your erroneous commentary on John 5:19 above that He "had to learn even before coming here." Rather, "He learned obedience through what He suffered." Surely you are not intimating that he suffered in any way before He came. Surely. So if he learned through suffering, none of that learning could possibly have taken place "before He came," as you put it.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

Nice attempt, Pinseeker, but you still failed to address specifically the scriptures I was asking about. I asked you or anyone to comment on those verses.

Here they are again:

John 5:19 (Had to LEARN, even before coming here)
Matthew 28:18 (He was GIVEN authority)
Matthew 26: 36-44 (He was begging for help; God does not need to beg for anything)
John 17:1-26 (Shows clearly that only the Father is God and has a position higher than anyone including Jesus)
Hebrews 5:7 (If he was God he could save himself, right?)

Well, I did, but one hears what he wants to hear. But specifically:

John 5:19 -- The "even before coming here" part is yours and yours only. This verse merely indicates following in the will of the Father. And because He proceeds from the Father (which clearly indicates His oneness with the Father and that He, though distinct in Person, is God), which He says of Himself (and the Holy Spirit) in John 14, He can do no other, even in the form of man.

Matthew 28:18 -- Surely you are not insinuating that God the Father has no authority either in heaven or earth anymore. Surely.

Matthew 26:36-44 -- Perhaps you overlook (or ignore) verse 41 ("The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.") This is a clear differentiation between His Godliness and His humanity, both of which are present in fullness in Jesus.

John 17:1-26 -- John 17 shows both that God has a "position" higher than any man including -- in the form of man such that He is -- Jesus. But in that same chapter (really chapters 13 through 17, because it's all one discourse), Jesus also clearly sets forth the triune nature of God (Father, Son, Spirit). Neither can be ignored; both must be -- should be, anyway -- accepted.

Hebrews 5:7 -- Apparently you skip over "In the days of His flesh" as if those words don't exist, much less as if they are not the antecedent clause of that sentence. His life in the form of man is clearly and distinctly in view here, and therefore the consistency in everything I have said in response to you throughout this conversation. The beginning of verse 8 clearly indicates the contrast ("Although he was a son"). And incidentally, verse 8 also clearly refutes your erroneous commentary on John 5:19 above that He "had to learn even before coming here." Rather, "He learned obedience through what He suffered." Surely you are not intimating that he suffered in any way before He came. Surely. So if he learned through suffering, none of that learning could possibly have taken place "before He came," as you put it.

Grace and peace to you.

(1) John 5:19---Jesus made clear that whatever he does he does what he observed the Father doing. Since he was in heaven with the Father for untold times past, obviously whatever he learned in heaven even before the earth was made came from the Father. If he was God he would not have to learn anything.

(2) Matt.28:18---Of course Jesus was not given authority over the Father, Jehovah. He was given authority over everyone and everything else. It doesn't say that, but it stands to reason. We ARE to use our power of reason, right?

(3) Matthew 26---When Jesus said "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak," he was referring to his disciples who had fallen asleep twice after he told them to stay awake. He wasn't referring to himself.

(4) Please tell me just how chapters 13-17 of John shows the triune nature of God. I really would like to see that.

(5) Heb.5:7 shows Jesus' full reliance on the Father to save him from the grave, to resurrect him. If he was God he would be able to do it himself. Actually, he wouldn't have been able to DIE, because God Almighty cannot die. Tell me what would happen to the universe if God DIED.


.

[PinSeeker]

(1) John 5:19---Jesus made clear that whatever he does he does what he observed the Father doing. Since he was in heaven with the Father for untold times past, obviously whatever he learned in heaven even before the earth was made came from the Father. If he was God he would not have to learn anything.

LOL! Jesus is clearly talking about the present tense and ongoing -- which is past to us now, of course. Quoting His words, He says:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all that He Himself is doing." (emphasis added). And then Jesus shifts immediately to the future. You want to take back what you said here? If not, you should...

(2) Matt.28:18---Of course Jesus was not given authority over the Father, Jehovah. He was given authority over everyone and everything else. It doesn't say that, but it stands to reason. We ARE to use our power of reason, right?

LOL! But again, He says "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." God the Father is in heaven, right? "Our Father, Who art in heaven..." Yes, so, if Jesus has all authority in heaven (as well as on earth), does that mean God the Father now has no authority? Perish the thought. You want to take back what what you said here? If not, you should...

(3) Matthew 26---When Jesus said "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak," he was referring to his disciples who had fallen asleep twice after he told them to stay awake. He wasn't referring to himself.

I agree. Sure. But the point still is that in the position that He had lowered Himself to -- He had set aside, of His own accord, His status as God for a time to accomplish our redemption, as Paul says in Philippians 2 -- He was praying to the Father that if there be any other way, let that be the way. He was not "begging," but submitting. I agree; God does not need to beg, because He does not worry, which begets begging. By contrast, his disciples, who terribly worried because they thought they were perishing in the boat on the lake, were begging Him to do something, and Jesus quieted the storm in an instant. And He says to the crowd on the Mount of Olives not to worry about what having food or clothing, because the Father will take care of them and provide according to His will. So if He's telling everyone not to worry, but then He himself worries -- which would, again, beget begging -- does that not make Him a hypocrite? So none of that is the case. In this passage in Matthew 26, Jesus is not worrying, and thus not begging, but rather, in His human condition -- and as God the Son, actually -- submitting to the will of the Father

(4) Please tell me just how chapters 13-17 of John shows the triune nature of God. I really would like to see that.

Well, we've talked about it before, but Jesus clearly portrays the One Jehovah God as three distinct Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is all said in one sitting, remember, so we can easily see it progressively:

• That He and the Father are two different Persons we agree on. But Jesus says, in 13: 31, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify Him at once." So Jesus is glorified, and God is glorified by the fact that Jesus is glorified... and conversely, Jesus is glorified by the Father glorifying Himself. And so all Persons in the Godhead are glorified at once.

• This is building on point 1 above, but in addressing all present, Jesus commands the disciples to believe in God and also in Him (14:1). , "Believe in God; believe also in me." Immediately, then, He tells Peter specifically, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also." And then immediately He tells Philip, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." So after just having shown the Father and the Son to be two distinct Persons, He then shows plainly their sameness. How is this possible? Because they are one in essence while existing as two distinct Persons.

So beyond the shadow of a doubt, the One True God, Jehovah, is made up of at least two Persons. Then:

• 3. Jesus says -- in the same conversation -- "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." Two unmistakable things here:
  
  • Clearly, Jesus is talking about another Person distinct from the Father and the Son, denoted specifically by the word 'Whom,' even referring to him in the third person ("He," "Him")
  • Jesus is also equating this third person, this "Spirit of truth," with Himself, as clearly conveyed by the word 'another' after Himself.

Jesus describes the Father and the Son as distinct persons and then equates the two in essence, and then describes the Son and the Spirit as distinct Persons and equates the two of them in essence. So then the easy inference is that, in mathematical terms:

• Given that A equals B...

• and given that B equals C...

• then A equals C...

• and A equals B equals C.

(5) Heb.5:7 shows Jesus' full reliance on the Father to save him from the grave, to resurrect him. If he was God he would be able to do it himself.

I agree with this, actually. But as you should well know, Jesus says He Himself laid His life down... and took it up again. The Father did not do it, but merely decreed it (which is no mere thing). But the Son did it Himself. So by your own definition here, Jesus is God, precisely because He was able to do it Himself... and did. You prove my point. Thank you.

Actually, he wouldn't have been able to DIE, because God Almighty cannot die. Tell me what would happen to the universe if God DIED.

Well, aside from the fact He did die proves that death is a "slumber" and certainly not a cessation of existence...

Certainly, God can do what He wants. He's God, after all. If in His human form He wanted to willingly lay down His life for His friends -- thereby showing His love to be greater than any other (John 15:13) -- and give His human existence up and offer up His spirit (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 20:30), He could certainly do so, and did. The better way to say that is, He would not be God if he were to remain dead. So, if the God of the universe were to remain dead, then I guess there would be no universe. But we don't have to worry about that happening, so there's no use speculating about it...

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

Pinseeker, when Jesus said that he "can do nothing of his own initiative," he was undoubtedly speaking of the total relationship between himself and his Father---how it had been before he came to earth and then as well. After all, the Scripture says, "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday and today and forever." (Hebrews 13:8) Therefore no one can say that he had diminished abilities once he came down to earth. He always had to look to the Father for power and strength, praying to him fervently. Nothing different from his life in heaven before he came here.

That he still deferred to the Father when he returned to heaven, I Corinthians 11:3 says: "I [Paul] want you to k now that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." And just who is "God?" Jesus made it clear when he said in his prayer: "{Father], YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3)

This is really all I have to say to you, and we have to agree to disagree. I hope some day the fog lifts. Have a good day.

[PinSeeker]

This is really all I have to say to you, and we have to agree to disagree.

Yes, very well.

I hope some day the fog lifts.

I hope (and pray) that for you also. But, God, via His Spirit, will do what He will do, as the Son tells Nicodemus in John 3.

Have a good day.

Much the same to you, OWH. Even much more so; grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

How could this mean that Jesus is God?

"[Father] you are the only true God..." (John 17:3)

He didn't say "we."

.

[PinSeeker]

How could this mean that Jesus is God?

"[Father] you are the only true God..." (John 17:3)

He didn't say "we."

The whole verse should be quoted instead of ignoring half -- or even two thirds of it...

• "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (John 17:3, English Standard Version)

• "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3, New World Translation)

There is absolutely nothing in this passage that would allow the sincere and responsible Bible student to dismiss a host of other passages that emphatically affirm the divine nature of Jesus Christ. There are two things of supreme importance in considering this passage.

• First, what is the thrust of the immediate context?
  Jesus's prayer here was directed on behalf of the vast masses of humanity, a great majority of whom were (and are) idolaters, worshiping many gods, indeed “false” gods. It was entirely appropriate, therefore, that Christ pray that they might become acquainted with the “only true God.” As such, it should not be missed or purposely overlooked that the companion phrases “the only true God" and "Him whom you have sent" demonstrate the unique relationship between the Father and the Son, not shared by the Father and the Son. In fact, Jesus purposely uses the Aramaic word translated into the Greek term erotao, which unmistakably suggests a relationship not shared by others. Finally, the verse has the lead-in "This is eternal life" (not really "This means everlasting life," as that is a purposeful manipulation of the text, although acceptable if understood correctly), which any respectable linguist would fully acknowledge directly indicates that the Father and Son are co-responsible -- in complementing but equally indispensable ways -- for the salvation of man.

• Second, how does this text relate to other biblical data on the same theme?
  No text can be isolated from its immediate context and forced to teach that which plainly is in contradiction to other relevant passages of scripture on the same topic that are of the clearest import. Yet this is exactly what some attempt to do in manipulating this text:
  
  • "No one has ever seen God (the Father); the only God, Who (Jesus) is at the Father’s side, He has made Him known." (John 1:18; John, in speaking of Jesus, is as the Word God (a reiteration of 1:1 and a closing of the prologue of his Gospel) and has revealed and explained God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- to humanity; the New World Translation purposefully manipulates these two verses in particular to something entirely antithetical to what the Holy Spirit clearly said here through the apostle John
  • “Only” God was worthy of worship (Matthew. 4:10), and yet Christ accepted such (Matthew. 14:33), thus Christ was not excluded from the deity class
  • “Only” God is absolutely wise (Romans 16:27), yet Paul affirms that it is “in Him [Christ] that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge [are] hidden” (Colossians 2:3); the language clearly exalts the wisdom/knowledge of Jesus beyond that of mere humanity (cf. Rom. 11:33), and identifies him as divine (Colossians. 2:9)
  • “Only” God is “holy” in the absolute sense (Revelation 15:4), and yet that unique sense of holiness is repeatedly attributed to Christ (Luke.1:35; Acts 2:27; 3:14)
  • John also writes concerning Jesus, “we are in Him that is true, even in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life...” (1 John. 5:20). If Christ can be “the true God,” with no reflection cast upon the Father -- even by the same writer, John -- then the Father can be “the true God,” with no disenfranchisement of Christ intended. John’s writings are replete with declarations of the full deity of Jesus (1:1,18; 5:17-18; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28). To dismiss all of these, in deference to an agenda-laden, forced interpretation of one phrase in John 17:3, reveals a bias that is blinded to a consistent, common-sense approach to the Holy Scriptures.

With all due respect and love to you and any other of the same opinion, the Jehovah's Witness contention regarding John 17:3, therefore, is entirely void of merit. But the familiar words of the poets/bards Simon and Garfunkel keep coming back:

• "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" (The Boxer, 1968).

Grace and peace to all.

[onewithhim]

Please see "Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine," the last post by onewithhim.

[PinSeeker]

Please see "Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine," the last post by onewithhim.

LOL! Sure. I quoted it in my last post and refuted it thoroughly.

Grace and peace to you, onewithhim.