JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 545#990545]Replying to post 35 by onewithhiml]]

Nope.

The religious leaders were objecting to his bringing Abraham into the conversation, and asked how could he know Abraham since he was not even 50 years old. It was about the length of his life, not who he was, in this discussion. He told them in good, proper, idiomatic Greek that he existed even before Abraham was born.

There need not be anything "more profound" in his reply than that.

If it was such a profound truth that he is YHWH, it certainly would be spelled out in the Word of God to humans.....but it is conveniently a "mystery"! I don't buy that. Where is this "profound" truth that Jesus is God Almighty in other things that he says?

Where is this profound idea here? "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)

Whoa! Not a single hint that He is God!

Where is the profound idea that Jesus is really God here? "The one who conquers--I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from MY GOD, and my own new name." (Revelation 3:12) Does that sound, in any way, like Jesus wants us to know that he is the God who spoke to Moses at Exodus 3:14?

That doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up is the God who spoke to Moses. The very One who told him that no human could see His face and stay alive.

The One who told him His name is "I am who I am" and/or "I will be who I will be".

What does that tell you' if anything?

It tells me He is full of surprises because He cannot be put in a box.

Some of those surprises will come on Judgment Day and beyond.

As for Jesus, as His Son, is the express image of His person, cannot be put in a box either. So many cryptic words and concepts. Does anyone really know what he meant by each of them?

"Before Abraham was, I am"? ?

Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 13 that:

When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Grace and peace.

I agree that there will be many surprises at the end of this system of things, when God makes known to us the truth of many matters that we wonder about today.

To me it is clear, though, what Jesus said and what he meant. I have posted a lot about the "I Am" controversy. Many translators have followed the rules for translating Greek to English (which the KJV translators, and others, did not) and have presented what Jesus must have meant, one good reason being that the Pharisees did not ask him who he was but exhibited astonishment at the possibility that he had lived longer than Abraham.

That's when he said, "I existed before Abraham was born."

That is the proper rendering, and obeys all the rules of translation as well as all other scriptures. There are so many that state clearly that Jesus is dependent on Jehovah for everything---what he says, what he does, strength to face his attackers, what position he holds in heaven, etc., etc. You have seen all these scriptures. So why do you still say that we can't know what Jesus meant?

[PinSeeker]

To me it is clear, though, what Jesus said and what he meant.

Well, me, too. But we differ, so either:

A. it is not clear to you OR me, or
B. it is not clear to you AND me

Many translators have followed the rules for translating Greek to English (which the KJV translators, and others, did not) and have presented what Jesus must have meant...

No English translations were "translated" from the King James Version. The only problem with the King James Version today, really, is that the English language today is a little hard sometimes to reconcile with the English language as it was used at that time. No Bible translation relies on the King James Version at all. This is what Jehovah's Witness, um, "propaganda," would have you believe, but it is just wrong, and it's purposely wrong. Any modern (or even semi-modern) translation is directly from the original Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament). There are some that do a better job than the others, but there is no difference between versions on this.

...the Pharisees did not ask him who he was...

Not explicitly, no. But this is because they knew exactly Who He was claiming to be. Jesus, over and over again, was applying the Name God assigned to Himself in His conversation with Moses on Mt. Sinai. This was the cause of their outrage.

...exhibited astonishment at the possibility that he had lived longer than Abraham... That's when he said, "I existed before Abraham was born."

On the surface, maybe so. But they were outraged because He was claiming to be God. He did not merely say He had lived longer than Abraham. He said that He was the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, that He was and is and always will be, even eternal, referring to Himself in the past tense, present tense, and future tense all at the same time -- which is only true of the great I AM.

THATis the proper rendering, and obeys all the rules of translation as well as all other scriptures.

There are so many that state clearly that Jesus is dependent on Jehovah for everything---what he says, what he does, strength to face his attackers, what position he holds in heaven, etc., etc.

I think we all agree on at least this much... I do, at least. As I have said (because Scripture does), He proceeds from the Father (as does the Spirit). He:

• * sits... which refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done
  
  * on the Throne of grace today... because He is the King of kings and Lord of lords)
  
  * and is at the right Hand of the Father... which is to say He is of equal position, honor, power, and authority with God
  
  * making constant intercession on our behalf... which is to say that although Christ’s work to secure the salvation of the elect was completed on the cross, His care for the His redeemed (his High Priesthood over us and for us) will never be finished but will last through eternity.

The ultimately unavoidable result of all this (though it can certainly be evaded, dodged, and denied for now) is that Jesus, while not God the Father, is God... part of the triune Godhead, which together is the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Grace and peace to you, onewithHim.

[onewithhim]

To me it is clear, though, what Jesus said and what he meant.

Well, me, too. But we differ, so either:

A. it is not clear to you OR me, or
B. it is not clear to you AND me

Many translators have followed the rules for translating Greek to English (which the KJV translators, and others, did not) and have presented what Jesus must have meant...

No English translations were "translated" from the King James Version. The only problem with the King James Version today, really, is that the English language today is a little hard sometimes to reconcile with the English language as it was used at that time. No Bible translation relies on the King James Version at all.

I don't believe I said that translations were translated from the KJV. I said that the KJV and others did not follow the rules of translating Greek to English. I think some of the versions did follow the KJV example, seeing as that version was considered THE accepted version in the English-speaking world. The KJV, if I understand correctly, did not go back to the original languages of Hebrew and Greek, but translated from the Latin Vulgate. That fact throws light on what some would call the distorted or badly rendered passages which the KJV translators are responsible for.

How do you know that "no Bible translation relies on the KJV"? I think that could be successfully refuted, and it has nothing to do with "JW propaganda."

[Checkpoint]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 545#990545]Replying to post 35 by onewithhiml]]

Nope.

The religious leaders were objecting to his bringing Abraham into the conversation, and asked how could he know Abraham since he was not even 50 years old. It was about the length of his life, not who he was, in this discussion. He told them in good, proper, idiomatic Greek that he existed even before Abraham was born.

There need not be anything "more profound" in his reply than that.

If it was such a profound truth that he is YHWH, it certainly would be spelled out in the Word of God to humans.....but it is conveniently a "mystery"! I don't buy that. Where is this "profound" truth that Jesus is God Almighty in other things that he says?

Where is this profound idea here? "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)

Whoa! Not a single hint that He is God!

Where is the profound idea that Jesus is really God here? "The one who conquers--I will make him a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from MY GOD, and my own new name." (Revelation 3:12) Does that sound, in any way, like Jesus wants us to know that he is the God who spoke to Moses at Exodus 3:14?

That doesn't add up.

What doesn't add up is the God who spoke to Moses. The very One who told him that no human could see His face and stay alive.

The One who told him His name is "I am who I am" and/or "I will be who I will be".

What does that tell you' if anything?

It tells me He is full of surprises because He cannot be put in a box.

Some of those surprises will come on Judgment Day and beyond.

As for Jesus, as His Son, is the express image of His person, cannot be put in a box either. So many cryptic words and concepts. Does anyone really know what he meant by each of them?

"Before Abraham was, I am"? ?

Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 13 that:

When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Grace and peace.

I agree that there will be many surprises at the end of this system of things, when God makes known to us the truth of many matters that we wonder about today.

To me it is clear, though, what Jesus said and what he meant. I have posted a lot about the "I Am" controversy. Many translators have followed the rules for translating Greek to English (which the KJV translators, and others, did not) and have presented what Jesus must have meant, one good reason being that the Pharisees did not ask him who he was but exhibited astonishment at the possibility that he had lived longer than Abraham.

That's when he said, "I existed before Abraham was born."

That is the proper rendering, and obeys all the rules of translation as well as all other scriptures. There are so many that state clearly that Jesus is dependent on Jehovah for everything---what he says, what he does, strength to face his attackers, what position he holds in heaven, etc., etc. You have seen all these scriptures. So why do you still say that we can't know what Jesus meant?

What we can't know is that we can't be absolutely sure we are absolutely correct about what we think we know about the meaning of anything specific that Jesus said.

Yes, that was quite a mouthful; I realise this!

As Christians we should have a good grasp of scripture and its basic message, including what Jesus said.

But we also need to remember, or be reminded, that we remain human and therefore fallible, and that we are pilgrims on a growth journey that has yet more in store for us to learn and to experience.

in my opinion, Paul, the one who had been Saul, would have had something like this to add:

1 Corinthians 4:

1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God .

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.� Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

1 Corinthians 8:

1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.� But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know.
3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

May you enjoy grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 38 by Checkpoint]

6, 10, and 35

Just a note to let you know I haven't forgotten my promise to answer these posts.

The delay is mainly because, by mistake, I did instead another 35 from the rumor thread.

I m very slow these days anyway, due to my double-whammy of very poor vision plus hands that have difficulty using the mouse.

Coming your way as and when!

Grace and peace.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 44 by Checkpoint]

Fair enough.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 45 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, I'm sorry to hear that you are having vision problems and also problems maneuvering. You sound like me!

Sometimes I can't even see with my glasses on! My old age is catching up to me. I can't ignore it any more. LOL! The other night I bent over and I started shaking and couldn't stop until I stood up---then it stopped. Weird!!

Well, anyway, you probably have noticed that I have a thing about thinking people are ignoring me. It's ingrained---growing up I was silenced, ignored, when I tried to ask something or express an opinion no one was interested; my mother actually would drown me out by playing the piano loudly. I've always had a huge negative reaction inside when I sense no one is listening to me. I hope you can forgive me for the times I complain about that.

[PinSeeker]

How do you know that "no Bible translation relies on the KJV"?

That's not what I said; you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I'll just take the two modern translations I refer to the most, the English Standard Version (ESV), first published in 2001, and the New American Standard Version (NASB), first published in 1963. Both are considered literal English Bible translations with the basic philosophy of remaining absolutely true to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, grammatically correct, understandable, and giving the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him, and not personalized in any way whatsoever.

There are very slight differences in some places between the two -- but only in word usage and not in substance or meaning. This is because the ESV follows an "essentially literal" translation philosophy, which means it takes into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages. This is a good thing. because otherwise -- because, generally speaking, the same word or phrase can have two entirely different meanings in two different languages -- there are some things in Scripture that would get changed in the translations from the original languages to English. This is the very thing that both the ESV was formulated to prevent.

The New World Translation (NWT), however, used only by Jehovah's Witnesses, is the only translation deliberately engineered to conform to a preconceived interpretation of Scripture. The proper term would be 'bias,' and one its primary purposes -- if not the most primary purpose -- is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. This is exactly why the NWT renders the following passages (among others) as it does:

• * Matthew 1:23
  • - "...Immanuel, which means, when translated, 'With Us Is God' â€� (NWT)
    - "...'Immanuel,' which translated means, 'God With Us' " (NASB)
    - "...'Immanuel' (which means, God with us)." (ESV)
  * John 1:1
  • - "...the Word was a god." (NWT)
    - "...and the Word was God." (NASB)
    - "...and the Word was God." (ESV)

The New World Translation actually does violence to God's Word, which ironically is the very things Jehovah's Witnesses hold that other translations do.

But we can agree to disagree.

Grace and peace to you, onewithHim.

[onewithhim]

How do you know that "no Bible translation relies on the KJV"?

That's not what I said; you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

That is exactly what you said. Look at your post #43.



(And did you look at the thread about other Bible versions and John 1:1? Would you kindly comment after doing so? You cast aspersions on the NWT and you don't even know about the other versions that agree with it.)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 45 by Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, I'm sorry to hear that you are having vision problems and also problems maneuvering. You sound like me!

Sometimes I can't even see with my glasses on! My old age is catching up to me. I can't ignore it any more. LOL! The other night I bent over and I started shaking and couldn't stop until I stood up---then it stopped. Weird!!

Well, anyway, you probably have noticed that I have a thing about thinking people are ignoring me. It's ingrained---growing up I was silenced, ignored, when I tried to ask something or express an opinion no one was interested; my mother actually would drown me out by playing the piano loudly. I've always had a huge negative reaction inside when I sense no one is listening to me. I hope you can forgive me for the times I complain about that.

I can. I have, and I will, onewithhim.

I cannot convey to you how delighted I was to receive your lovely post, and then over the following days how irked I was becoming at failing to find it(I was looking through the wrong threads).

Anyway, success came early today, by searching my own profile posts.

Yes, growing old and being old can often be quite challenging, and we all have our moments; we all have our story.

You bravely told us a little of your time growing up, of how you then felt you were being ignored, and that you still do feel that way and respond accordingly, even today.

So many people find themselvesto be in a similar bind of one kind or another, that stems from negative past experiences.

But there is hope for you


. Jesus came to set the captive free, and to loose what binds us up! He is with you. Cast all your cares on him, for he cares for you.

May grace and peace be yours in all their fullness.