How reliable is the scriptures we have?

[polonius]

Before we examine any religious belief system, lets consider it's writings.

Lets start with the Gospel of Matthew.

From Introduction to Matthew in the New American Bible (Catholic) US Catholic Conference of Bishops.

"The ancient tradition that the author was the disciple and apostle of Jesus named Matthew (see Mt 10:3) is untenable because the gospel is based, in large part, on the Gospel according to Mark (almost all the verses of that gospel have been utilized in this), and it is hardly likely that a companion of Jesus would have followed so extensively an account that came from one who admittedly never had such an association rather than rely on his own memories."

What we call the Gospel of Matthew is unsigned and didn't have a name until the second century when if that named by Papius, not the brightest Church Father.

“Eusebius of Caesarea - On Papias - original Greek Text with English translation�
From Historia Ecclesiastica, 3. 39.
13. For he (Papius) appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.

[brianbbs67]

Evaluating the Truth of the New Testament.

The New Testament writers learned an important lesson from the Hebrew Scriptures. They learned about truth and lies.
How does the OT define Truth and Lies?

Here are some examples.

Abraham lied to Pharaoh when he said Sarah was his sister.
Genesis 12:18 (New American Standard Bible)
Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?

Later Abraham used the same lie on Abimelech.
Genesis 20:2 (New American Standard Bible)
Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister " So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.

Isaac also used the same lie.
Genesis 26:7 (New American Standard Bible)
When the men of the place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," for he was afraid to say, "my wife," thinking, "the men of the place might kill me on account of Rebekah, for she is beautiful."

Jacob lied to Isaac when he tricks his father into giving him the blessing for Esau.
Genesis 27:20 (New American Standard Bible)
Isaac said to his son, "How is it that you have it so quickly, my son?" And he said, "Because the LORD your God caused it to happen to me."
It was really a lamb that he was eating rather than wild game.
Genesis 27:24 (New American Standard Bible)
And he said, "Are you really my son Esau?" And he said, "I am."
But it was really Jacob lying and disguising his skin with the lamb’s hide.

There are numerous lies. If you are well read in the OT you know them.
The Hebrew Midwives lied.
Rahab the Harlot lied.
David lied numerous times.
Jehu lied
Moses lied.

The point is that all these lies were never punished, they were usually rewarded, and God never complained about these liars and their lies. The lies were always justified because they fit into God’s plan. God was not offended.
The lesson that the NT writers learned, IMO, is that a lie is justified if it promotes their theology. God will not be offended by their lies.
God doesn't mind a lie as long as it's for a good cause.

Take that into consideration when you evaluate the truthfulness of the New Testament.

Bearing false witness was the sin(don't lie in court or cause harm by a false statement), not lying to save yourself or otherwise.

Just like Its Thou shalt not Murder is the true command. Killing is necessary at sometime as is lying.

[Red Wolf]

Evaluating the Truth of the New Testament.

The New Testament writers learned an important lesson from the Hebrew Scriptures. They learned about truth and lies.
How does the OT define Truth and Lies?

Here are some examples.

Abraham lied to Pharaoh when he said Sarah was his sister.
Genesis 12:18 (New American Standard Bible)
Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?

Later Abraham used the same lie on Abimelech.
Genesis 20:2 (New American Standard Bible)
Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister " So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.

Isaac also used the same lie.
Genesis 26:7 (New American Standard Bible)
When the men of the place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," for he was afraid to say, "my wife," thinking, "the men of the place might kill me on account of Rebekah, for she is beautiful."

Jacob lied to Isaac when he tricks his father into giving him the blessing for Esau.
Genesis 27:20 (New American Standard Bible)
Isaac said to his son, "How is it that you have it so quickly, my son?" And he said, "Because the LORD your God caused it to happen to me."
It was really a lamb that he was eating rather than wild game.
Genesis 27:24 (New American Standard Bible)
And he said, "Are you really my son Esau?" And he said, "I am."
But it was really Jacob lying and disguising his skin with the lamb’s hide.

There are numerous lies. If you are well read in the OT you know them.
The Hebrew Midwives lied.
Rahab the Harlot lied.
David lied numerous times.
Jehu lied
Moses lied.

The point is that all these lies were never punished, they were usually rewarded, and God never complained about these liars and their lies. The lies were always justified because they fit into God’s plan. God was not offended.
The lesson that the NT writers learned, IMO, is that a lie is justified if it promotes their theology. God will not be offended by their lies.
God doesn't mind a lie as long as it's for a good cause.

Take that into consideration when you evaluate the truthfulness of the New Testament.

Bearing false witness was the sin(don't lie in court or cause harm by a false statement), not lying to save yourself or otherwise.

Just like Its Thou shalt not Murder is the true command. Killing is necessary at sometime as is lying.

Are you saying it is OK to lie? Isn't Satan the father of the lie?

[PinSeeker]

Just like Its Thou shalt not Murder is the true command. Killing is necessary at sometime as is lying.

Disagree.

As you know, murder is different than killing; killing is not always murder. So killing is not necessarily against God's Law. I agree with you on that.

However, lying is still lying. It is never "okay to lie." We are not to bear false witness, regardless of the circumstances, but rather trust God as to what our earthly circumstance will be if we tell the truth. Abraham did not trust God with the result from his telling the truth and chose instead to lie; this was his sin. However, God chose to use Abraham's lie -- sinlessly -- for his good. This fits perfectly with Paul's statement that God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:2).

Grace and peace to you guys.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 62 by Red Wolf]

I personally think that it is NOT right to lie, about anything. I would say NOTHING before I would lie.

Now, when Jehovah gave the ten commandments to Moses, he said to not kill, but I believe that He meant not to MURDER. Murder is an illegal, immoral act, usually involving a defenseless individual. The death penalty, incorporated by the legal system of a state, is not murder. It is sanctioned by God:

"Anyone shedding man's blood, by man will his own blood be shed." (Genesis 9:6)

[PinSeeker]

I would say NOTHING before I would lie.

In many cases, that might actually be lying. Withholding the truth can be, essentially, lying.

[onewithhim]

I would say NOTHING before I would lie.

In many cases, that might actually be lying. Withholding the truth can be, essentially, lying.

Well, I won't take splitting hairs to THAT extent. If I was a prisoner in Auschwitz and I hid my baby in a trash barrel, and an officer of the camp asked me to tell him where my baby was, I would sure as heck not tell him!

[brianbbs67]

I would say NOTHING before I would lie.

In many cases, that might actually be lying. Withholding the truth can be, essentially, lying.

Well, I won't take splitting hairs to THAT extent. If I was a prisoner in Auschwitz and I hid my baby in a trash barrel, and an officer of the camp asked me to tell him where my baby was, I would sure as heck not tell him!

Exactly what I meant by my statement. Lying is not good practice but silence may be necessary to save lives or even an outright falsehood.

This is a whole other animal than lying in court or to authorities to punish a man unjustly. That is bearing false witness.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/exodus/20-16.htm