God's truth about hell

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Checkpoint
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God's truth about hell

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #481

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #468]

Checkpoint wrote:
↑Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:09 pm
With regard to "the lake of fire", this expression is not used to indicate "its figurative -- symbolic -- nature". It is used, in Revelation 20:14, as the figurative counterpart to the literal "second death". In the same way as are other matters in Revelation 1.
This "clarification" really doesn't even make sense, Checkpoint.[/quote wrote:
Not, apparently, to you, yes.

I wonder why that would be?

So anyone can see for themselves, by comparing the passages, I now repeat them.
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 20:14 ....The lake of fire is the second death.
Both those passages make sense to me.

What needs to be explained is figurative; what is then identified is literal.
I mean:

a.) no, the lake of fire is not "used" to indicate its figurative -- symbolic -- nature, but the fact is that it is figurative and symbolic in nature, which you have said before

b.) and regarding the second death, it depends on what you mean by 'literal' -- yes, the second death is most certainly literal, but it is not physical in nature; literal annihilation of the person is not in view in Revelation 20; it is the permanent removal of God's grace from a person, and only God's judgment and its tangible and intangible effects remain for the person -- we see it in Jesus's question ("Why have you forsaken me?") and His final cry ("It is finished!") on the cross"



So both are symbolic of a very literal spiritual (not woodenly physical) reality and state of being. After the Judgment, the unrepentant, while continuing in existence and consciousness, will be finally and completely spiritually dead, and will depart into "outer darkness" -- which is itself a symbolic term; what it will really be like is impossible for us to know -- away from Jesus and the new heaven and new earth.
Wow! Such a fascinating mix in there, Pinseeker.

It is not surprising, though. Having redefined the plain meaning of "death" in any context, you try to do the same with the biblical "second death".

For example, you redefine literal to exclude anything "physical in nature", and then describing the person as "continuing in existence and consciousness, which is just another way of saying someone is alive and not dead.

You then further redefine your literal second death in saying,

"So both are symbolic of a very literal spiritual (not woodenly physical) reality".

There is more, but that is all this time.

Grace and peace..







Again, what you're saying here seems very much to me like a sort of beating around the bush. I think I've sort of backed you into a corner here, which I didn't mean to do, but it is what it is.[/quote

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #482

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #468]
Again, what you're saying here seems very much to me like a sort of beating around the bush. I think I've sort of backed you into a corner here, which I didn't mean to do, but it is what it is.
Yes Pinseeker, it is what it is, as this saying has it, whatever that "it" is.

In any serious debate, each side is likely to think the other is only "beating around the bush". This is because they have been "backed into a corner".

What particular bush do you mean in saying - again - I am doing that?

What corner do you think you have backed me into?

May the Lord bless you.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #483

Post by Eloi »

In order for a person who believes in a place like hellfire where certain "surplus" of dead bad people are being burned to be able to credibly teach another that such a place exists according to the Scriptures, he first has to define very clearly with the Scriptures what that surplus is.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #484

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm Respectfully, Pinseeker, the answer you gave, and have now repeated, avoids using some words used in the question, by replacing them with another word.
Exactly. And intentionally. Because the wording you used was... misguided. It's not "avoidance," it's correction. Not that I'm correcting you, really, but making a correction to errant verbiage. And that is clear. There was never any avoidance on my part. My perception was -- and continues to be -- that you're using this incorrect verbiage intentionally in an effort lead to an unavoidable conclusion that fits your narrative. I was really always being tactful in my rephrasing, so as to make your beating around the bush untenable.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm Such a fascinating mix in there, Pinseeker.
Well that's just it, Checkpoint; the "mixing" -- and thus gross incongruence -- though possibly unintentional, has been all you from the get-go here. Thus, your beating around the bush, because that mixing cannot work. I get that you want it to, but it cannot.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm Instead of giving a direct answer, this, in your own words, is what you did...
Yeah, I know exactly what I "did," Checkpoint. See above.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm My actual question was not misdirected.
It most assuredly was.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm It used terms that, in this discussion, originated with you and yet were replaced by you in your answers.
No, they originated with you, Checkpoint, or at least one in particular, if I remember correctly. Such misdirection, intentional or otherwise, is very common in discussions like this; you can see it in just about every thread on this board in one place or... a hundred. :) And I corrected it in my answer, even stating why. It was very intentional.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm The question was specific, and did not make any comparisons.
Right, but misdirected, as per above.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm I am still awaiting a specific direct answer, using the terms used in the question. Please, Pinseeker!
Right, and you may as well quit waiting; you will never get a "specific answer" to your question, not because I just don't want to answer or because of any kind of avoidance, but for the reasons stated above.
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm There is more, but that is all this time.
I suggest you stop while you're only way, way, way behind. :)

Grace and peace to you, my friend.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #485

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:15 am In order for a person who believes in a place like hellfire where certain "surplus" of dead bad people are being burned to be able to credibly teach another that such a place exists according to the Scriptures, he first has to define very clearly with the Scriptures what that surplus is.
LOL!!! "Surplus." Never heard it put that way before... :D

Hey! Waaaaaait a miiiiiiinnnnniiiiiiit! You're talking to me now? :D Eh, maybe not. But anyway...

No, there are:
  • those God loved -- in the same manner as Jacob -- and those He hated -- in the manner of Esau...
  • Elect and non-Elect...
  • those whom He decided to have mercy upon and those He did not, according to His absolute sovereignty...
  • those created for honorable use and those created for dishonorable use...
  • those He has prepared beforehand for His glory and has and will call, and those vessels of wrath whom He has and will endure with patience but are prepared beforehand for destruction.
This is Romans 9. It is crystal clear. Either "A" or "Not A," but all very purposeful on the part of God. There are no "surpluses" with God. :D

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #486

Post by Eloi »

PinSeeker, you don't say anything about what is that postmortem "surplus" ... Maybe you think you know, but it seems to me that you don't. How is it that there is a place where something is thrown that you cannot even explain what it is that they throw there?

Perhaps the example of Jesus Christ will tell you something useful. Everyone knows that Scripture says he "was" in Hades after he died. What part of Jesus do you think was thrown there?

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #487

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:24 pm PinSeeker, you don't say anything about what is that postmortem "surplus" ... Maybe you think you know, but it seems to me that you don't. How is it that there is a place where something is thrown that you cannot even explain what it is that they throw there?
"Can't explain what it is that they throw there..." Did I not just say (as I have said many times before) that those who are not members of God's Elect are the ones who spend eternity there? I believe I've been very clear in multiple threads about that. How you could possibly make such a claim is quite incredulous.
Eloi wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:24 pm Perhaps the example of Jesus Christ will tell you something useful. Everyone knows that Scripture says he "was" in Hades after he died.
Okay, I'm not denying or affirming what you say here. What Scripture would you point to that say he "was" (not sure why you put that word in quotes) in Hades after He died?
Eloi wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:24 pm What part of Jesus do you think was thrown there?
An interesting question. How would you answer your own question there?

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #488

Post by Eloi »

Let the Bible itself answer:

Acts 2:24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it.

From what did God free Jesus when he resurrected him?

Heb. 5:7 During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.

Was it from a Hades of fire?

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #489

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:01 pm Let the Bible itself answer...
Yes, the Bible answers, but not everyone understands. And very few, if any, understand completely, and I'm not even claiming that I do.

From Acts 2:27 and Hebrews 5:7, it is clear that Jesus experienced death as all human beings do. You and I agree on that much, I think. But at the very least, there are different understandings of what Jesus actually experienced after His human death. Therefore, I'm asking you -- you -- a second time how you would answer your own question. And I'm hoping you can answer with a little grace, but that's up to you, of course. Not to say you have none, by any means, but, well, you know.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: God's truth about hell

Post #490

Post by Eloi »

We are not blind ... no one has to guess. Jesus himself says what happened to him:

Apoc. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave [Hades]. ... "

What do you think Jesus meant by "I became dead"?

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