God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

You are granting the reward of the saved to both believers and nonbelievers.

Nope. You fail to make the same distinction Checkpoint either won't see or won't acknowledge. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

You are granting the reward of the saved to both believers and nonbelievers.

Nope. You fail to make the same distinction Checkpoint either won't see or won't acknowledge. Grace and peace to you.

So you no longer believe that nonbelievers will exist forever in some sort of torment?

Good for you!

That will remove much worry and stress from your life.

Thank you God for answered prayers!

[PinSeeker]

So you no longer believe that nonbelievers will exist forever in some sort of torment?

Well I do, but only because is very clear that such is unfortunately the case. Thanks for being so cool and trying to put words in my mouth, though...

That will remove much worry and stress from your life.

LOL! Well, life is hard for all of us, isn't it, myth-one? God told us (in Adam) that would be the case all the days we are "under the sun." So yeah, stress is very much a part of that for all of us, albeit in different ways, of course. But my eternal security is very sure. In that sense, I'm very much stress-free.

And I would add to that and say that the unbelievers around us are stress-free in that respect, too. Because they don't even know -- don't believe -- that salvation is needed, or even eternal security can be had. In this respect, they are dead, and the dead, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, know nothing.

You're a colorful character, myth-one. Maybe someday you can come around to seeing things rightly. I mean, you will, sooner or later. Again, grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

You are granting the reward of the saved to both believers and nonbelievers.

Nope!

The Bible states that the reward of the saved is everlasting life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Unsaved will perish.

But you have repeatedly stated that the unsaved will exist eternally also.

If that is your belief, then the saved and the unsaved are both going to have everlasting life -- which is supposed to be exclusively the reward of the saved!

If all humans will have everlasting life, then relative to the unsaved, the saved have gained nothing.

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But my eternal security is very sure. In that sense, I'm very much stress-free.

It's very sad that untold numbers of beings will be consigned to everlasting conscious torment, and that causes you no stress.

That false belief is designed to cause stress!

[PinSeeker]

The Unsaved will perish. But you have repeatedly stated that the unsaved will exist eternally also.

Yes, and I have repeatedly stated that "perishing" is not a "wiping from existence" except in the sense that the existence of the perished will eternally be in a place other than the new heaven and the new earth, and in the presence of the One Who is Life, Jesus Christ. To not understand Jesus when He shows that so graphically is quite amazing to me, but far be it from me to condemn you for your opinion.

If that is your belief, then the saved and the unsaved are both going to have everlasting life...

Nope. See above.

If all humans will have everlasting life, then relative to the unsaved, the saved have gained nothing.

Agreed. Yeah, universalism... that's another heresy out there...

It's very sad that untold numbers of beings will be consigned to everlasting conscious torment, and that causes you no stress.

Now that's interesting. My assertion of being stress-free was concerning my eternal destiny only.

Now, if you want to talk about others, it doesn't really cause me "stress," because I know God is totally sovereign and His purposes will be accomplished. But my concern for the unsaved is palpable. Perhaps they will not remain in that state all the days of their physical life. Thus the need for evangelism. But even then, it's freeing to know that all I have to do is share, and God will work through that or not depending upon His will. So I don't have to worry about "failing."

Grace and peace to you. Especially grace as you are apparently so lacking in it.

[myth-one.com]

The Unsaved will perish. But you have repeatedly stated that the unsaved will exist eternally also.

Yes, . . .

You now confirm your belief that the unsaved will exist eternally, as will believers.

Jesus states that nonbelievers will perish:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your fictional "existing eternally" is having an everlasting existence -- same as everlasting life.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #450]

Checkpoint wrote:

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

Pinseeker wrote:

To answer your question -- as if it needed answering -- when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. That's really kind of senseless question

O.K, then, let me instead briefly summarize our major differences, and why they are what they are, as I see them.

There are two major differences, and our approach to the second one is somewat influenced by what we think we have established in the first.

Thus they are:

1). How man was created as related in Genesis, and what the relevant passages mean or infer. Especially that which is connected to mortality or immortality in some form.

2). What the actual final destiny is, of those rejected at the Judgment, who will be "thrown into Gehenna/the lake of fire, which is the Second Death".

To you be grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

The Unsaved will perish. But you have repeatedly stated that the unsaved will exist eternally also.

Yes, . . .

You now confirm your belief that the unsaved will exist eternally, as will believers.

Well, "thanks" for conveniently cutting off my complete reply and making it look like something quite different than what it actually was. I said (and I quote), "Yes, and I have repeatedly stated that "perishing" is not a "wiping from existence" except in the sense that the existence of the perished will eternally be in a place other than the new heaven and the new earth, and in the presence of the One Who is Life, Jesus Christ. To not understand Jesus when He shows that so graphically is quite amazing to me, but far be it from me to condemn you for your opinion.

Jesus states that nonbelievers will perish:

Yes, He does. But again, He also says -- which you discount because it doesn't fit your narrative -- that at the Judgment, the unrepentant DEPART (Matthew 7 and Matthew 25) and will GO AWAY INTO ETERNAL PUNISHMENT (Matthew 25). He very surely does make a sharp distinction between this eternal punishment and eternal life, but clearly, "eternal punishment" is not a wiping from existence.

Your fictional "existing eternally" is having an everlasting existence -- same as everlasting life.

Absolutely, unequivocally false. To correct:

• Eternal punishment is not possible without eternal existence.

• Eternal existence is not eternal life unless that eternal existence is in the presence of the One Who is life, Jesus Christ.

• Neither eternal punishment nor eternal existence away from Christ is eternal life; both are completely opposite eternal life.

• All this is both a) shown graphically and b) described clearly by Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #450]

Checkpoint wrote:

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

Pinseeker wrote:

To answer your question -- as if it needed answering -- when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. That's really kind of senseless question

O.K, then, let me instead briefly summarize our major differences, and why they are what they are, as I see them.

There are two major differences, and our approach to the second one is somewat influenced by what we think we have established in the first.

Thus they are:

1). How man was created as related in Genesis, and what the relevant passages mean or infer. Especially that which is connected to mortality or immortality in some form.

2). What the actual final destiny is, of those rejected at the Judgment, who will be "thrown into Gehenna/the lake of fire, which is the Second Death".

With all due respect, Checkpoint, it certainly feels like to me -- and this is surely not a new "feeling" -- that you're purposely beating around the bush. Okay:

• Does number 1 really mean what you think being created in God's image means versus what I think it really means? I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

• Regarding number 2, I would probably agree with you on that "difference," but I would put it more in the respect that it seems we disagree sharply on (among other related things, like "perishing" and "eternal punishment"; see my comments to good ole myth-one, God love him ) what being "thrown into the lake of fire" really means.

• And also regarding number 2, what is strange to me is that you have agreed -- I think you have agreed... I may be wrong -- that this "lake of fire" is figurative, and symbolic of the true reality of this "eternal punishment." But then you turn right around and insist that it is literal. And you are not alone in that reversal.

Maybe you can state in a clearer way what you think our differences are.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

• Eternal punishment is not possible without eternal existence.

It is if the punishment is death.

The Unsaved will perish. But you have repeatedly stated that the unsaved will exist eternally also.

Yes, . . .

You now confirm your belief that the unsaved will exist eternally, as will believers.

Well, "thanks" for conveniently cutting off my complete reply and making it look like something quite different than what it actually was. I said (and I quote), "Yes, and I have repeatedly stated that "perishing" is not a "wiping from existence" except in the sense that the existence of the perished will eternally be in a place other than the new heaven and the new earth, and in the presence of the One Who is Life, Jesus Christ. To not understand Jesus when He shows that so graphically is quite amazing to me, but far be it from me to condemn you for your opinion.

Now, once again you confirm your false belief that nonbelievers will exist eternally. -- but with more words.

Basically you believe that all mankind will exist eternally as a consequence of being born human. That is, eternal existence is a birthright for all mankind.

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Why would a God equated with love condemn even one man to everlasting conscious torment?


How could a loving God create mankind in such a way that justifies His being a God of love?