God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Basically you believe that all mankind will exist eternally as a consequence of being born human.

I know -- because, thus saith the Lord, because God created man in His image, and other Scriptural reasons -- that all will exist into eternity future.

That is, eternal existence is a birthright for all mankind.

No, it's a grace of God.

Why would a God equated with love condemn even one man to everlasting conscious torment?

Because He is also a God of justice, which, like other traits of God flows from His love.

How could a loving God create mankind in such a way that justifies His being a God of love?

The fact that God created man at all justifies His being a God of love. And on top of that, He created man in His image -- which you have a very small-minded concept of. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #461]

God created man in His image, but we are not equal to God.

Man was created below the angels.

The difference which you do not understand is body type.

God and the angels have spiritual bodies while humans have natural or physical bodies.

You were preached that, as it is not in the scriptures.

Man will not have a spiritual body until we are born again of the Spirit.

At present, man has only been born of the flesh with a natural physical body -- which will die.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #450]

Checkpoint wrote:

When someone is spiritually dead, does that mean that, spiritually they have "existence", they still "exist" spiritually, or not?

Pinseeker wrote:

To answer your question -- as if it needed answering -- when one is spiritually dead, he or she is not spiritually alive. That's really kind of senseless question

O.K, then, let me instead briefly summarize our major differences, and why they are what they are, as I see them.

There are two major differences, and our approach to the second one is somewat influenced by what we think we have established in the first.

Thus they are:

1). How man was created as related in Genesis, and what the relevant passages mean or infer. Especially that which is connected to mortality or immortality in some form.

2). What the actual final destiny is, of those rejected at the Judgment, who will be "thrown into Gehenna/the lake of fire, which is the Second Death".

Pinseeker replied:

With all due respect, Checkpoint, it certainly feels like to me -- and this is surely not a new "feeling" -- that you're purposely beating around the bush. Okay:

• Does number 1 really mean what you think being created in God's image means versus what I think it really means? I'm not sure what you're getting at with that.

• Regarding number 2, I would probably agree with you on that "difference," but I would put it more in the respect that it seems we disagree sharply on (among other related things, like "perishing" and "eternal punishment"; see my comments to good ole myth-one, God love him ) what being "thrown into the lake of fire" really means.

• And also regarding number 2, what is strange to me is that you have agreed -- I think you have agreed... I may be wrong -- that this "lake of fire" is figurative, and symbolic of the true reality of this "eternal punishment." But then you turn right around and insist that it is literal. And you are not alone in that reversal.

Maybe you can state in a clearer way what you think our differences are.

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks. And to you, Pinseeker.

Yes, number one does basically mean our understanding of what being "made in the image of God means. In this discussion, what it includes, and what it doesn't include.

Specifically, whether or not it includes "eternal existence". You believe it does and I believe it does not.

This number 1 difference naturally results in our number 2 differences. Such as eternal punishment and the lake of fire.

To clarify about the lake of fire:

I see it as the figurative counterpart to a literal second death.

Blessings, Pinseeker.

[Checkpoint]

Basically you believe that all mankind will exist eternally as a consequence of being born human.

I know -- because, thus saith the Lord, because God created man in His image, and other Scriptural reasons -- that all will exist into eternity future.

That is, eternal existence is a birthright for all mankind.

No, it's a grace of God.

Why would a God equated with love condemn even one man to everlasting conscious torment?

Because He is also a God of justice, which, like other traits of God flows from His love.

How could a loving God create mankind in such a way that justifies His being a God of love?

The fact that God created man at all justifies His being a God of love. And on top of that, He created man in His image -- which you have a very small-minded concept of. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

WOW multiplied!

That's why I am adding this post of yours to my last one. [I had then not already read this post of yours.]

Without any other observations this time. Right now I may be just a little gob-smacked.

May the Lord make His face shine on you, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

but we are not equal to God.

Who ever said such a thing? Certainly not me.

Man was created below the angels.

Sure. Psalm 8. Sure.

The difference which you do not understand is body type. God and the angels have spiritual bodies while humans have natural or physical bodies.

No, regarding human beings, you make a false distinction and imagine the two to be mutually exclusive ("you can't be one and the other at the same time"), which is totally antithetical to Scripture. We physical beings have been made spiritually alive, as both Paul and Peter clearly attest multiple times.

Man will not have a spiritual body until we are born again of the Spirit. At present, man has only been born of the flesh with a natural physical body -- which will die.

No, now those of us who have been made spiritually alive in Christ are new creations in Christ -- both physical and spiritual, where only the physical existed before. Thus, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, first is the natural and then the spiritual.

With all due respect, myth-one, we're done, dude. I'm out of patience with you. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Specifically, whether or not it includes "eternal existence". You believe it does and I believe it does not.

Right on. Have understood that since we first talked about it.

This number 1 difference naturally results in our number 2 differences. Such as eternal punishment and the lake of fire.

Whatever you say. It really seems to me that #2 is independent of #1. Related in important ways, but independent. But no matter. It is what it is.

To clarify about the lake of fire: I see it as the figurative counterpart to a literal second death.

Understood. And I agree with you regarding its figurative -- symbolic -- nature. But I continue to say that the second death is the dead spiritual condition made permanent and irreversible by God as a result of the Judgment.

Right now I may be just a little gob-smacked.

Well that's unfortunate. Certainly, I wish you a quick recovery.

Blessings to you also.

[Checkpoint]

Specifically, whether or not it includes "eternal existence". You believe it does and I believe it does not.

Right on. Have understood that since we first talked about it.

This number 1 difference naturally results in our number 2 differences. Such as eternal punishment and the lake of fire.

Whatever you say. It really seems to me that #2 is independent of #1. Related in important ways, but independent. But no matter. It is what it is.

To clarify about the lake of fire: I see it as the figurative counterpart to a literal second death.

Understood. And I agree with you regarding its figurative -- symbolic -- nature. But I continue to say that the second death is the dead spiritual condition made permanent and irreversible by God as a result of the Judgment.

Right now I may be just a little gob-smacked.

Well that's unfortunate. Certainly, I wish you a quick recovery.

Blessings to you also.

I think your wish has been granted!

As for exactly what is meant by "God made man in His image", there is almost no Scripture that spells anything out for us.

Therefore, what we think is an inference is only that, what we think, our own opinion.

With regard to "the lake of fire", this expression is not used to indicate "its figurative -- symbolic -- nature".

It is used, in Revelation 20:14, as the figurative counterpart to the literal "second death". In the same way as are other matters in Revelation 1.

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

20:14 ....The lake of fire is the second death.

May the Lord give you, Pinseeker, His peace.

[PinSeeker]

As for exactly what is meant by "God made man in His image", there is almost no Scripture that spells anything out for us.

Not in a nice tidy little package, no. But we are told all we need to know. It's a matter of taking it all in, not finding one little thing here or there.

Therefore, what we think is an inference is only that, what we think, our own opinion.

Disagree. The inferences -- and the "exferences"... -- are clear. We may have different opinions on those, but surely you are not intimating that God was intentionally or unintentionally misleading or deceptive.

With regard to "the lake of fire", this expression is not used to indicate "its figurative -- symbolic -- nature". It is used, in Revelation 20:14, as the figurative counterpart to the literal "second death". In the same way as are other matters in Revelation 1.

This "clarification" really doesn't even make sense, Checkpoint. I mean:

a.) no, the lake of fire is not "used" to indicate its figurative -- symbolic -- nature, but the fact is that it is figurative and symbolic in nature, which you have said before

b.) and regarding the second death, it depends on what you mean by 'literal' -- yes, the second death is most certainly literal, but it is not physical in nature; literal annihilation of the person is not in view in Revelation 20; it is the permanent removal of God's grace from a person, and only God's judgment and its tangible and intangible effects remain for the person -- we see it in Jesus's question ("Why have you forsaken me?") and His final cry ("It is finished!") on the cross"

So both are symbolic of a very literal spiritual (not woodenly physical) reality and state of being. After the Judgment, the unrepentant, while continuing in existence and consciousness, will be finally and completely spiritually dead, and will depart into "outer darkness" -- which is itself a symbolic term; what it will really be like is impossible for us to know -- away from Jesus and the new heaven and new earth. Again, what you're saying here seems very much to me like a sort of beating around the bush. I think I've sort of backed you into a corner here, which I didn't mean to do, but it is what it is.

May the Lord give you, Pinseeker, His peace.

Yes, grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #468]

Checkpoint wrote:

↑As for exactly what is meant by "God made man in His image", there is almost no Scripture that spells anything out for us.

Not in a nice tidy little package, no.

But we are told all we need to know. It's a matter of taking it all in, not finding one little thing here or there.

Because "made in His image" is not that "nice tidy little package", it is no basis for "telling us all we need to know" about whether or not He created man to have innate "eternal existence". Nor for anyone to then be "taking it all in" from the rest of Scripture.

Rather, one should seek such a package elsewhere in Genesis 1-3.

Checkpoint wrote:

↑Therefore, what we think is an inference is only that, what we think, our own opinion.

Disagree. The inferences -- and the "exferences"... -- are clear. We may have different opinions on those, but surely you are not intimating that God was intentionally or unintentionally misleading or deceptive.

Thinking of that "but surely" as a possibility, reveals more than what is in plain view on the surface.

God bless you, my brother.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #469]

More beating around the bush.

No, God is very clear in His Word that man will exist in one state or the other for eternity.

Yes, grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.