A belief of the Jehovah Witnesses?

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:02 am

Garbe, Detlef (2008). Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich. University of Wisconsin Press. pp. 37, 38. ISBN 0-299-20794-3.

" In their opinion, only people who have accepted Jehovah and subsequently submit to his requirements will survive Armageddon and enter into the New World ... Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that a person confessing to worship God has to be associated with the true Christian denomination. Since they claim to be the only true religious denomination, they also claim to have the only means for salvation."

Is this a belief that all Jehovah Witnesses hold?

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:43 am

Peace to you!

While you are clarifying other points, perhaps you will clarify something else?

[Replying to post 111 by JehovahsWitness]

You are trying unsuccessfully to suggest that Peter was not refering to Jehovahs judgement or salvation for those that live to see Jehovahs day, scriptures say differently.

I do not know what you are saying here. Perhaps you could rephrase? Thanks!

Peace again to you.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:38 am

[Replying to post 124 by tam]

No.

That point doesnt need any clarification, I expressed as clearly as I can the way I see things.

I can do no better than my best.

JW

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:44 am

Peace to you.

[Replying to post 125 by JehovahsWitness]

Well if I can't understand what you are saying, then it can hardly be something that I have suggested.

Moving on.

Peace again to you.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:52 am

[Replying to post 126 by tam]

Thats not my problem.

tam wrote:
Moving on.

Yes, that might be wise.

Goodbye

JW

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:48 am

Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Overcomer wrote:This indicates that they believe one has to be a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses (which they regard as God's only true organization on earth) to be saved.
Well I'm one of Jehovahs Witnesses so I think its fair to say I'm in a better position to say what we, Jehovahs Witnesses believe than you are. We believe that everyone, whether inside or outside will be judged by Jesus when he returns; being part of Gods organisation is no guarantee if survival. Just as being outside is no guarantee of death.

Christians are however as I'm sure you know, commmanded to preach and teacn and baptise new disciples. This is because we believe that inside the Christian congregation is the best and safest place to be spiritually.

It has occurred to me that people have a hard time with the concept of taking the essential steps to for survival (following jnstructions) but still being subject to final judgement.

To Illustrate: If a fireman for points towards the fire exit of a burning building is he condemning everyone else to death. Is he judgjng them? If he says "Go straight ahead take the firsst corridormon your left and only when you are outside will you be safe (saved). We are not the fire God is and He will destroy who he wants. This doesnt mean we shouldnt obey Christ and direct people to the safety and security of Gods organisation.
JW

Safety and security do not derive from any organisation, whatever it is and whatever it is called.

Safety and security come from the one true God who keeps His promises, and from His Son, in whom are all those promises that we say yes and amen to.

This is true, but why would we eschew the earthly organization that Jesus is running? If he is the head of this, it must be to our benefit that we would be associated with it.

.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:21 am

onewithhim wrote: This is true, but why would we eschew the earthly organization that Jesus is running? If he is the head of this, it must be to our benefit that we would be associated with it.

.

Exactly. I dont think I explained it very well which is why I edited (see below). I think the "once saved always saved" community has lead people to having a false view of the role of organsation.

JehovahsWitness wrote: Well I'm one of Jehovahs Witnesses so I think its fair to say I'm in a better position to say what we, Jehovahs Witnesses believe than you are. We believe that everyone, whether inside or outside will be judged by Jesus when he returns; being part of Gods organisation is no guarantee if survival but it is where he wants his people to be. Just as being outside is no guarantee of death.

It has occurred to me that people have a hard time with the concept of taking the essential steps to for survival (following instructions) but still being subject to final judgement.

To Illustrate: A fireman points people towards the fire exit of a burning building. He tels them "Go straight ahead take the first corridor on your left and only when you are outside (ONLY THEN) will you be safe (saved) - compare Rev 18:4; 1Pet 1:21. All that is true, but the story doesnt end there.

Now imagine God arrives he has three sets of people those outside (that followed instructions), those still trapped inside that (never heard the instructions ) and those that thought the fireman was not a real fireman or didnt take his warnings seriously. Obviously he is pleased with those that obeyed instructions, they didnt get burnt, they got cleaned up and they are already where he wants them to be but he will still have to judge their hearts. But for them, given their actions, things look good (Mat 25).

Those that never hear or didnt take the warnings might be all burnt up, dirty with soot and somewhat traumatized, they too will be judged. For those that ignored the warnings obviously things dont look good but it not a done deal, the jugement is seperate and apart from their disobedience. God still has to judge the hearts., so he wont just say "Well you didnt listen so I'm going to kill you". Some will be waved through some will not.
Does that help to understand how we see things? We got out, we're helping others get out, but that doesn't mean where you are in the end guarantees survival (or death).

JW

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:02 am

onewithhim wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Overcomer wrote:This indicates that they believe one has to be a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses (which they regard as God's only true organization on earth) to be saved.
Well I'm one of Jehovahs Witnesses so I think its fair to say I'm in a better position to say what we, Jehovahs Witnesses believe than you are. We believe that everyone, whether inside or outside will be judged by Jesus when he returns; being part of Gods organisation is no guarantee if survival. Just as being outside is no guarantee of death.

Christians are however as I'm sure you know, commmanded to preach and teacn and baptise new disciples. This is because we believe that inside the Christian congregation is the best and safest place to be spiritually.

It has occurred to me that people have a hard time with the concept of taking the essential steps to for survival (following jnstructions) but still being subject to final judgement.

To Illustrate: If a fireman for points towards the fire exit of a burning building is he condemning everyone else to death. Is he judgjng them? If he says "Go straight ahead take the firsst corridormon your left and only when you are outside will you be safe (saved). We are not the fire God is and He will destroy who he wants. This doesnt mean we shouldnt obey Christ and direct people to the safety and security of Gods organisation.
JW

Safety and security do not derive from any organisation, whatever it is and whatever it is called.

Safety and security come from the one true God who keeps His promises, and from His Son, in whom are all those promises that we say yes and amen to.
This is true, but why would we eschew the earthly organization that Jesus is running? If he is the head of this, it must be to our benefit that we would be associated with it.

.

If we look at the nation of Israel during Jesus' time. Even though many of those "taking the lead" were rotten to the core, the Son of God still went to them first with the Good News. The first ones invited to rule in Heaven were from Israel.

Fast forward to today. JWs have much better men taking the lead than in the Israel of Jesus' day. The FDS, overseers and elders will be the first ones to tell you that nothing is due to their work. They pass all glory to Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ. Without Jehovah and His Son, our religion would fall apart and the things we have accomplished would have never happened. So based on what happened in Israel, since I have faith that the JWs are the chosen people at the end of this system of things, It'd be in my best interest to stay put.

Yahwehismywitness · Post by **Yahwehismywitness** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:25 am

In old testament people met in homes and today that is acceptable too based on most not obeying Holy Sabbath started during creation.

Sunday is named after the sun, there are many warnings about this
https://yahwehismywitness.com/blog/f/th ... ahwehs-law

Do you believe we are to obey 10 commandments, JW?

tam · Post by **tam** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:18 pm

Peace to you,

The illustration:

To Illustrate: A fireman points people towards the fire exit of a burning building. He tels them "Go straight ahead take the first corridor on your left and only when you are outside (ONLY THEN) will you be safe (saved) - compare Rev 18:4; 1Pet 1:21. All that is true, but the story doesnt end there.

First off- Christ is the fireman. Not the WTS (or the men taking the lead in the WTS). Or any other religion; organization out there.

Second - from our discussion, the article I quoted from did not say 'only then you will be saved'. The article said 'only then will you survive "Jehovah's day" (aka, Armageddon; aka the burning building).

Now imagine God arrives he has three sets of people those outside (that followed instructions), those still trapped inside that (never heard the instructions ) and those that thought the fireman was not a real fireman or didnt take his warnings seriously. Obviously he is pleased with those that obeyed instructions, they didnt get burnt, they got cleaned up and they are already where he wants them to be but he will still have to judge their hearts. But for them, given their actions, things look good (Mat 25).

You are saying that the people who followed the instructions are the ones who survived the fire in the building and made it outside (phase 1), but they still have to make it through a later judgment (phase 2).

Applying your analogy to our discussion - the burning building = "Jehovah's day; Armageddon" = Phase 1. In order to survive the burning building (Armageddon; Phase 1), the WTS gives instructions that one must 'make the truth their own by applying what they learn, dedicating their life to Jehovah, and getting baptized. Only then will they survive Jehovahâ€™s day'.

Therefore, in order to survive the burning building aka "Armageddon" (Phase 1) one must "apply what they learn, dedicate their life to Jehovah and get baptized. ONLY THEN will they survive Armageddon (the burning building; Phase 1). There are no other 'sets of people' who survived this event.

Those that never hear or didnt take the warnings might be all burnt up, dirty with soot and somewhat traumatized, they too will be judged. For those that ignored the warnings obviously things dont look good but it not a done deal, the jugement is seperate and apart from their disobedience. God still has to judge the hearts., so he wont just say "Well you didnt listen so I'm going to kill you". Some will be waved through some will not.

Except that the WTS teaches that if one is killed at Armageddon (Phase 1, the burning building) it is a done deal. Their judgment and death is permanent.

You agreed with that in post 20.

This is what the WTS teaches. Even if some/many jws do not believe it.

(I imagine that at least some of those folks who do see what the WTS teaches are among those who have left that organization).

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:28 pm

tam wrote:
Except that the WTS teaches that if one is killed at Armageddon (Phase 1, the burning building) it is a done deal.

If you dont agree with that your fight is not against us but against Jesus.

MATTHEW 25

â€œWhen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. ... â€œThen he will say to those on his left: â€˜Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels... These will depart into everlasting cutting-off....â€�

Do you believe anything that Jesus said at all?

JW