YHWH
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Wootah
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YHWH
Post #1Y - the hand
H - reveals
W - the nail
H - reveals
How is anyone that believes YHWH is God able to negate the evidence above that YHWH is Jesus?
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/je ... -is-yahweh
YHWH is the name above all names correct?
Philippians 2:9-11 says — Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Anyone want to directly confront both pieces of evidence?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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Willum
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Post #21
Looks good to me.
Just remember ancient languages had no vowels. So when you write the name Yahweh, in Ancient Hebrew, for example, you remove the vowels. YHWH,
Willum would be WLLM.
Elijah John would be HLYH YHN.
There is no magic in the name being vowels.
Just remember ancient languages had no vowels. So when you write the name Yahweh, in Ancient Hebrew, for example, you remove the vowels. YHWH,
Willum would be WLLM.
Elijah John would be HLYH YHN.
There is no magic in the name being vowels.
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CrazyBibleG
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Re: YHWH
Post #22[Replying to Wootah]
I will PinSeeker. Just so you know my position, I do not believe in the gods of the Hebrew Tanakh or the Christian cannon. However, I will still negate the evidence you have presented that YHVH is Jesus.
To your first claim, you state that YHVH Elohim is Jesus and your evidence is that the Hebrew letters that make up YHWH carry individual meanings that equate to ‘the hand revealed the nail revealed.
On this logic, I should be able to do the same with the Hebrew word for God – Elohim.
Aleph = Ox
Lamed = Staff, goad, control, towards
Hey = Reveal (or behold)
Yod = Hand (or arm, work or deed)
Mem = Water
‘Ox staff reveal hand water’ and of course this is what Elohim is all about! You see my point here. Your method does not quite work for an equally important Hebrew word designated to the category of the divine. Of course Hebrew letters carry meaning, but the technique used here is somewhat esoteric in nature with the aim of retro fitting Christological meaning to the Semitic name of an Israelite deity. If I could offer you another one, two, three or more Hebrew words that render typological meaning to Christian key words, does that mean those Hebrew words also have spiritual significance? What if I could pick a significant Hebrew word that reveals that Jesus is actually Satan, would that convince you that Jesus is not YHWH or even God? Maybe you think that only YHWH’s name can have this esoteric treatment applied to it. To this I would say special pleading. Either this hidden meaning technique works for all Hebrew words or it works for none.
Your claim that because you can assign ancient Phoenician linguistic meaning to the Hebrew letters that make up the Hebrew word YHWH so it throws up ‘revealed’ twice with a ‘nail’ and a ‘hand’ thrown in and therefore it must mean Jesus is YHWH is a weak and unconvincing argument.
As for your second claim taken from the New Testament Phil 2:9:11, how do these verses prove Jesus is YHVH (I render the Tetragrammaton as YHVH as the Vav is a V)? Firstly, these verses in and of themselves are a claim and not evidence. Then there is the problem Greek not being Hebrew. The Greek word theos is rendered as God in English and in the Tanakh, the Hebrew word elohim is rendered as God in English. Both elohim and theos are higher category words to denote a ‘god’. But which elohim is the theos of these verses you cite? The Israelite deity is generally referred to as YHVH Elohim in the Tanakh but the New Testament does not have such a nuance for the Israelite deity. On reading another Greek literary work from antiquity, Apollonius of Tyana, you will constantly come across the God in the English translation. What word do you think the word ‘God’ is translated from in the original Greek? It is Zeus. Theos is the category of god, Zeus is the name of the theos. One must be very careful making assumptions about Gods when dealing with antique texts.
Then there is the Greek word kyrios (Strong’s Ref G2962) rendered into English as Lord, sir and master. Matt 15:27 has kyrios occurring twice in the same verse and this example demonstrates exactly how the word kyrios should be understood – ‘And she said, Truth, Lord: (G2962) yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' (G2962) table.’ Should the second kyrios be translated and YHVH? Should it really read ‘yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their ‘YHWH’s’? Clearly not.
On a side note, even the Septuagint makes this same egregious mistake, rendering YHVH as kyrios while also translating ‘my master’ (adoni) to kyrios in verses like Gen 23:6 ‘Hear us, my lord (adoni in Tanakh / kyrios in Septuagint), thou art a mighty prince among us’’. This verse states the Children of Heth call Abraham adoni yet Abraham is clearly not YHVH. However, because the Greek word kyrios means master, Abraham could be called kyrios even though he is not a God nor YHVH specifically. Transliteration is the only way to hold the meaning between languages. And on the point of getting the name of the Israelite God right, the Greek New Testament fails on this fundamental point. On your argument, Abraham is YHVH because this is what the Septuagint states.
YHVH Elohim is never transliterated from the Hebrew into the Greek New Testament. Even in Hebrew, you have to be very careful to not assumed that YHVH is being inferred and not another unidentified elohim when the only identifier of the deity is the word elohim. You could make the assumption that this verse in Philippians is saying Jesus is YHVH but what it actually says is ‘Jesus Christ is master’. You will need the actual word ‘YHVH’ in the text to claim the text says Jesus Christ is YHVH. Isn’t that, after all, the whole point of these verses – getting the name of the god right?
I will PinSeeker. Just so you know my position, I do not believe in the gods of the Hebrew Tanakh or the Christian cannon. However, I will still negate the evidence you have presented that YHVH is Jesus.
To your first claim, you state that YHVH Elohim is Jesus and your evidence is that the Hebrew letters that make up YHWH carry individual meanings that equate to ‘the hand revealed the nail revealed.
On this logic, I should be able to do the same with the Hebrew word for God – Elohim.
Aleph = Ox
Lamed = Staff, goad, control, towards
Hey = Reveal (or behold)
Yod = Hand (or arm, work or deed)
Mem = Water
‘Ox staff reveal hand water’ and of course this is what Elohim is all about! You see my point here. Your method does not quite work for an equally important Hebrew word designated to the category of the divine. Of course Hebrew letters carry meaning, but the technique used here is somewhat esoteric in nature with the aim of retro fitting Christological meaning to the Semitic name of an Israelite deity. If I could offer you another one, two, three or more Hebrew words that render typological meaning to Christian key words, does that mean those Hebrew words also have spiritual significance? What if I could pick a significant Hebrew word that reveals that Jesus is actually Satan, would that convince you that Jesus is not YHWH or even God? Maybe you think that only YHWH’s name can have this esoteric treatment applied to it. To this I would say special pleading. Either this hidden meaning technique works for all Hebrew words or it works for none.
Your claim that because you can assign ancient Phoenician linguistic meaning to the Hebrew letters that make up the Hebrew word YHWH so it throws up ‘revealed’ twice with a ‘nail’ and a ‘hand’ thrown in and therefore it must mean Jesus is YHWH is a weak and unconvincing argument.
As for your second claim taken from the New Testament Phil 2:9:11, how do these verses prove Jesus is YHVH (I render the Tetragrammaton as YHVH as the Vav is a V)? Firstly, these verses in and of themselves are a claim and not evidence. Then there is the problem Greek not being Hebrew. The Greek word theos is rendered as God in English and in the Tanakh, the Hebrew word elohim is rendered as God in English. Both elohim and theos are higher category words to denote a ‘god’. But which elohim is the theos of these verses you cite? The Israelite deity is generally referred to as YHVH Elohim in the Tanakh but the New Testament does not have such a nuance for the Israelite deity. On reading another Greek literary work from antiquity, Apollonius of Tyana, you will constantly come across the God in the English translation. What word do you think the word ‘God’ is translated from in the original Greek? It is Zeus. Theos is the category of god, Zeus is the name of the theos. One must be very careful making assumptions about Gods when dealing with antique texts.
Then there is the Greek word kyrios (Strong’s Ref G2962) rendered into English as Lord, sir and master. Matt 15:27 has kyrios occurring twice in the same verse and this example demonstrates exactly how the word kyrios should be understood – ‘And she said, Truth, Lord: (G2962) yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' (G2962) table.’ Should the second kyrios be translated and YHVH? Should it really read ‘yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their ‘YHWH’s’? Clearly not.
On a side note, even the Septuagint makes this same egregious mistake, rendering YHVH as kyrios while also translating ‘my master’ (adoni) to kyrios in verses like Gen 23:6 ‘Hear us, my lord (adoni in Tanakh / kyrios in Septuagint), thou art a mighty prince among us’’. This verse states the Children of Heth call Abraham adoni yet Abraham is clearly not YHVH. However, because the Greek word kyrios means master, Abraham could be called kyrios even though he is not a God nor YHVH specifically. Transliteration is the only way to hold the meaning between languages. And on the point of getting the name of the Israelite God right, the Greek New Testament fails on this fundamental point. On your argument, Abraham is YHVH because this is what the Septuagint states.
YHVH Elohim is never transliterated from the Hebrew into the Greek New Testament. Even in Hebrew, you have to be very careful to not assumed that YHVH is being inferred and not another unidentified elohim when the only identifier of the deity is the word elohim. You could make the assumption that this verse in Philippians is saying Jesus is YHVH but what it actually says is ‘Jesus Christ is master’. You will need the actual word ‘YHVH’ in the text to claim the text says Jesus Christ is YHVH. Isn’t that, after all, the whole point of these verses – getting the name of the god right?
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CrazyBibleG
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Willum
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Re: YHWH
Post #24[Replying to post 22 by CrazyBibleG]
Indeed, well said.
In addendum:
Zeus = Dyues = Deus = Theos.
How? The issue is rooted in the elements you name.
How do people without a "TH" sound pronounce "th?"
As a 'd'.
Thus, Theos = Deus = God.
The analogy is exemplified with YHWH = Jehovah.
We know "J" is a modern invention, used to replace a kind of "Y", see where this is going.
There is also the conflation of "W" and "V," and of course "U."
Jehovah is a phonically correct way to pronounce YHWH.
Or if you must, YHWH is also written YHVH.
So Jehovah and Yahweh are the same word...
This all becomes unified when we investigate how Greeks and Romans pronounced not on Zeus (Deus), but Jove.
Remembering the J did not exist, Jove was originally spelled Iove.
Remembering "E" at the end of a word is silent is an English convention, we pronounce Jove as I-O-V-E, all leters pronounced.
There are two ways to do this...
I = EE or Yah
O = long or short uh or oh.
V = V or W
E = Eh or E
What do you get? Jove is correctly pronounced Yahweh or Jehovah.
A little much of a coincidence, if you ask me.
I mean how is it the po-dunk deity from a backwater nation has the same name as the deity of a major empire?
Is it because the backwater is right, and the empire caved to it?
Or did the Empire continue its policy of usurping and supplanting its conquered territories with its religions and beliefs?
Here, take a look at pronunciation...
Jove pronounced
Indeed, well said.
In addendum:
Zeus = Dyues = Deus = Theos.
How? The issue is rooted in the elements you name.
How do people without a "TH" sound pronounce "th?"
As a 'd'.
Thus, Theos = Deus = God.
The analogy is exemplified with YHWH = Jehovah.
We know "J" is a modern invention, used to replace a kind of "Y", see where this is going.
There is also the conflation of "W" and "V," and of course "U."
Jehovah is a phonically correct way to pronounce YHWH.
Or if you must, YHWH is also written YHVH.
So Jehovah and Yahweh are the same word...
This all becomes unified when we investigate how Greeks and Romans pronounced not on Zeus (Deus), but Jove.
Remembering the J did not exist, Jove was originally spelled Iove.
Remembering "E" at the end of a word is silent is an English convention, we pronounce Jove as I-O-V-E, all leters pronounced.
There are two ways to do this...
I = EE or Yah
O = long or short uh or oh.
V = V or W
E = Eh or E
What do you get? Jove is correctly pronounced Yahweh or Jehovah.
A little much of a coincidence, if you ask me.
I mean how is it the po-dunk deity from a backwater nation has the same name as the deity of a major empire?
Is it because the backwater is right, and the empire caved to it?
Or did the Empire continue its policy of usurping and supplanting its conquered territories with its religions and beliefs?
Here, take a look at pronunciation...
Jove pronounced
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onewithhim
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Post #25
onewithhim wrote:Yes of course. Jesus called Jehovah "my God" on many occasions. He certainly worshipped Him, as even his disciples realized.Eloi wrote: The name Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation". Jesus is a Jehovah's worshipper, as his followers after him.
John 20:17
Revelation 3:12
Mark 15:34
I Corinthians 15:24
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onewithhim
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Post #26
That method of giving meaning to a name is, pardon my bluntness, laughable. Surely you say that it looks good to you with tongue in cheek! How about replying to my post #19?Willum wrote: Looks good to me.
Just remember ancient languages had no vowels. So when you write the name Yahweh, in Ancient Hebrew, for example, you remove the vowels. YHWH,
Willum would be WLLM.
Elijah John would be HLYH YHN.
There is no magic in the name being vowels.
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Eloi
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Post #27
That's a question I've thought about a lot. Christendom, in imitation of the Jews, does not want to use Jehovah's name, and the reason they use as a pretext is that that name is not exactly the name of God, and therefore cannot be used to refer to God.brianbbs67 wrote:I agree. I just can't understand why we don't call Iesous by his name which we all know as Joshua?Eloi wrote: The name Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation". Jesus is a Jehovah's worshipper, as his followers after him.
If, in turn, they consider Jesus as GOD, what is the reason why they do not apply that same principle about using the name Jesus? Do they involuntarily acknowledge that Jesus is not the name of God?
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onewithhim
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Post #28
[Replying to post 27 by Eloi]
Good point. They are repulsed by God's actual name, but not by the "false" name of His Son, (the truer examples being Yeshua/Ieshua/Iesus) which would be "Jesus." Indeed, that is not what he was known by in the first century. People are extremely inconsistent on that.
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Good point. They are repulsed by God's actual name, but not by the "false" name of His Son, (the truer examples being Yeshua/Ieshua/Iesus) which would be "Jesus." Indeed, that is not what he was known by in the first century. People are extremely inconsistent on that.
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brianbbs67
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Post #29
Part of me wonders if it goes deeper. Like intentional delusion. All seminary students know these things. Why aren't they applied? Could it be if people recognized 'Jesus" was a Torah observant Judahian and preached only Torah observance without the traditions of men, they would recoil from a Hebrew religion? The original followers of the Way of Christ kept the sabbath and appointed times. Even Paul documents this, himself.Eloi wrote:That's a question I've thought about a lot. Christendom, in imitation of the Jews, does not want to use Jehovah's name, and the reason they use as a pretext is that that name is not exactly the name of God, and therefore cannot be used to refer to God.brianbbs67 wrote:I agree. I just can't understand why we don't call Iesous by his name which we all know as Joshua?Eloi wrote: The name Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation". Jesus is a Jehovah's worshipper, as his followers after him.
If, in turn, they consider Jesus as GOD, what is the reason why they do not apply that same principle about using the name Jesus? Do they involuntarily acknowledge that Jesus is not the name of God?
So, the big question is, do our religious leaders want us all to be least in the kingdom of heaven or be told "I never knew you, you worker of lawlessness"? Or do they care at all?
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Willum
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Post #30
Really?onewithhim wrote:Yes of course. Jesus called Jehovah "my God" on many occasions. He certainly worshipped Him, as even his disciples realized.Eloi wrote: The name Jesus means "Jehovah is Salvation". Jesus is a Jehovah's worshipper, as his followers after him.
John 20:17
Revelation 3:12
Mark 15:34
I Corinthians 15:24
.
John 20:17
I have not ascended to the father...
When he ascends he will be God, obviously. THAT IS WHAT ASCEND MEANS.
Unless Jesus was ignorant in his word use.
Revelation 3:12
Just as above. When he descends, he is no longer ascended, and separated from God.
Mark 15:34
That was of course his body, separated from the spirit that cried out. The dull matter not being divine, cried out in agony.
I Corinthians 15:24
Makes little sense in any context. Jesus is a deliverer, and needs no power - God is the all-powerful one, and so does not need anything delivered. It makes no sense to do so.
So, it is rather your quotes that undermine your point.
Was Jesus only the body born from his mother?
Had it been slain (hypothetically) by accident or other misfortune, would that have shut down God's goals? No.
Therefore God's spirit inhabited the mere body of what people recognized as Jesus.
