Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

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Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation
.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM
.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�


John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�


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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #241

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

I said:

It is very clear from your posts that you clearly deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.


If that is what you have concluded let me correct you right now: I do not deny the divinity of Christ. I do not however, believe Christ at any time during his existence in any form has been (or will ever be) equal in power, position or age with YHWH the Father.

My response:

If you do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, then do you confess that Jesus Christ is indeed God the Son?

May I remind you that the Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ is Alpha and Omega (the first and the last). That he is King of kings and Lord of lords.

If you believe that YHWH is God the father then I see your problem. Jesus Christ is indeed YHWH, or Emmanuel or God with us. On this point I respectfully disagree with you.

It is very clear that Jehovah is the creator of this heaven and earth. It is also very clear according to the Bible that by his name Jesus Christ he is the very creator of heaven and earth.

You fail to recognize that Jehovah is the first born son of (Eloheim) aka God the father.

I understand, of course, that at times Jehovah spoke by divine investiture in the first person as God the father.

By the way you have still not answered my other questions.

Indeed the stone which you have rejected has become the head of the corner.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #242

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:20 am
If you do not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, then do you confess that Jesus Christ is indeed God the Son?
Depends on what you mean if you mean:
Jesus, who must not be worshipped, is a created being that at one time did not exist and is a seperate person to Almighty God and is not and never has been equal in power, authority, rank and age to his Father ( YHWH /Jehovah).... then yes, no problem.
Revelations won wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:20 am Jesus Christ is indeed YHWH, ... On this point I respectfully disagree with you.
Ditto.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #243

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:20 am

By the way you have still not answered my other questions.
Which questions ?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #244

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

Sorry if I did not present the following in my post #239 as direct questions. I will present the following as questions.

1.It is also very clear that you deny that there is only one name under heaven whereby man may be saved?

2. It is very clear that you deny that Jesus Christ is the “Holy one of Israel”?

3. Is it is also very clear that you claim that if Jesus Christ had failed in his mission as the redeemer of all mankind that you believe that we can be saved without the atonement of Jesus Christ ?

4. Is it is also very clear that that you deny that Jesus Christ stands at the right hand of (Eloheim) God the Father?

5. If you claim, that Jesus Christ in not God the Son, then you appear to assert that mortals can atone for others sins?

6. Do you claim that a mortal has the power to judge all mankind?

7. Do you accept that that as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that you claim he is not God the Son?

8. By your position you are actually admitting that mortals can receive all that the Father hath, for we may become heirs and joint heirs with Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #245

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW's and Onewithhim,

It appears that my last post was too much for you to respond to. So let's just break it down to bite sized level.

1.It is also very clear that you deny that there is only one name under heaven whereby man may be saved?

My observation is that from your posts it is very clear that you claim we can receive salvation and exaltation, even if Christ had sinned and utterly failed in his mission as our savior and redeemer and creator of heaven and earth. Let’s hear you full and simple honest answer.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #246

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:31 pm
7. Do you accept that that as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that you claim he is not God the Son?
Jehovahs Witnesses accept as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that His father (who is superior to him) GAVE him. He was not given the power to exercise dominion over his own Father YHWH (Jehovah) one was he granted quality to that One. He (Jesus/the word) can rightly be described as a god, but never as YHWH the AMLIGHTY.

Jesus is not equal in power, rank or authority to Almighty God Jehovah the supreme ruler of the universe nor will he ever be.


I think the above answer #7 covers all your other questions.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #247

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

Responding to your post #246:

Revelations won wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:31 pm

7. Do you accept that that as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that you claim he is not God the Son?

Jehovahs Witnesses accept as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that His father (who is superior to him) GAVE him. He was not given the power to exercise dominion over his own Father YHWH (Jehovah) one was he granted quality to that One. He (Jesus/the word) can rightly be described as a god, but never as YHWH the AMLIGHTY.

My response: Your above answer appears tone double talk because in you other posts you deny the he is God the Son. In your current post “He (Jesus/the word) can rightly be described as a god”. In your response you do not admit that he is indeed God the Son of the eternal Father (Eloheim).

Also I have never at any time stated that Jesus the Christ was “given the power to exercise dominion over his own Father”.

You stated “Jesus is not equal in power, rank or authority to Almighty God”. Again I have never made such a claim. I certainly stand by my claim that Jesus the Christ is the only begotten son of God the Father (Eloheim).

Your problem arises from your misunderstanding or doctrine that Jehovah is God the Father. Your interpretation is clearly a JW “private interpretation”
The Bible does not state that Jehovah is the literal father of Jesus Christ.

I understand clearly that Jehovah at times spoke by “divine investiture” as God the Father.

If one were to accept your JW private interpretation that Jehovah was God the Father (Eloheim) then you introduce a doctrine that there are indeed two (2) separate creators of heaven and earth and two (2) separate saviors and redeemers.

Next you said “Jesus is not equal in power, rank or authority to Almighty God Jehovah the supreme ruler of the universe nor will he ever be.”

My response: I never claimed that Jehovah is God the Father. Nor have I at any time claimed that that Jesus ever claimed superiority over God the Father.

You said: I think the above answer #7 covers all your other questions.

My response:It clearly does NOT answer all the other questions.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #248

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:47 am I never claimed that Jehovah is God the Father. Nor have I at any time claimed that that Jesus ever claimed superiority over God the Father
So, do you admit that Jesus is not, nor will he ever be equal in power, rank or authority or age to YHWH(Jehovah) the supreme ruler of the universe and that he can never be described as ALMIGHTY God because being a created individual he (Jesus/The Word) at one time did not exist ?

If so, we might be on the same page,


JW
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #249

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

I clearly recognize that the Bible in the OT states the Jehovah is the only Savior.

I clearly recognize that the NT declares that there is only one name under heaven whereby man can be saved, meaning Jesus Christ.

If Christ had failed to make an atonement for the sins of mankind and chose to follow a life of sin and wickedness, could anyone be saved in the kingdom of God?
Let’s have a clear answer from you.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #250

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Jw’s

In your response to your post # 246 I give the following:

I never claimed that God the Son Jesus Christ was greater than God his Father.

I have only declared that he was given all power in heaven and earth and that he has received all that the father hath as the scriptures so clearly state.

Isaiah has clearly prophesied of Christ in the following verses:


1. “Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Christ could only be the “Holy one of Israel” if one of his parents were also of the House of Israel.

2. “Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior”

It should be very clear that there can bee only ONE Savior.

It is therefore made clear that Jehovah and Christ are one and the same.


3. “Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. “

The above prophesy of Isaiah pertaining to Christ makes It very clear that
THAT CHRIST IS THE CHILD THAT WAS BORN AND THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHALL BE UPON HIS SHOULDER: AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED WONDERFUL, COUNSELLOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE”.

4. Isaiah 9:7
“Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”

5. “Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. “

Christ is the only one who has swallowed up death in victory

6. “Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

As Isaiah testified concerning Christ “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Kind regards,
RW

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