Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

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Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation
.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM
.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�


John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�


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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #191

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:30 pm The Word could not taste death for every man because the Word is immortal and cannot die.
Oh, He could and He did, thanks be to God, in our place as a man in the Person of Jesus, Who was, is, and always will be God's Word personified.
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:01 pm How can they be the same and different?
They're not. See above. And John 1, namely:
  • "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Notice that there is nothing there to insinuate that when the Word became flesh, He (Jesus) ceased to be the Word. But anyway, also, along with John 1, Philippians 2, namely:
  • "...Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (used), but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:01 pm Thanks in advance.
Quite welcome, my friend. Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #192

Post by William »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:56 pm
William wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:59 pm That only leaves one option - the ones reading scripture are the deceivers/deceived…and since this is the case, no interpretations can be trusted as truth.
Agreed.
William wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:59 pm Which in turn allows one to see that truth cannot be found in interpreting scripture - so must be sourced elsewhere...

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Not to do so only increases the likelihood of getting into an endless loop and going relatively nowhere.
Image
aka "Ouroboros"
Not agreed. By your reasoning, all that you are telling me cannot be trusted or accepted and must be disregarded, too.

Grace and peace to you.
Not at all. My reasoning doesn't even use the word 'disregard'. One simply understands that those arguing various biblical interpretations in said Ouroboros manner, are those doing the disregarding.

What I said is that one will have to find another source for the truth about biblical writ, since that source is deception.

In principle, that which moves forward is the better thing to follow than that which goes around in circles...

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #193

Post by William »

The Holy Spirit is The Mother.

She is a person, but only in the sense that She is The Mind - immaterial consciousness - The Ghost. The Mother, The Father and The Son

As for 'talking blood' [Abel's] DNA - encoding.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #194

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm I understand what holy spirit is (not on my own, on my own I had no clue, but I understand only because my Lord has shown me, taught me, helped me to understand).
And I -- with all due respect -- would say that, because you deny the existence of the Holy Spirit and that He is your Helper (or would be, anyway), that tells me that you are not discerning correctly.
I mean no offense, Pinseeker... but why should I care what you have to say, over what I have learned from my Lord? If I have learned one thing from my Lord, and "Pinseeker" disagrees, what would that disagreement matter to me?
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:32 pm ...but this concerns what I have said regarding what Jesus said in John 14, and that He clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as a Person Who also, as He Himself does, proceeds (again, a very important concept to understand properly) from the Father.
Erring pen of the scribes - Jeremiah (8:8)
Woe to you scribes - Christ (Matt 23:13)
As stated already, the scribes personified holy spirit wherever they saw it, not because that is what the text required, but because of the traditional belief in the trinity. That is a bias.
Again, taking Scripture totally out of its context. Moving on.
In your opinion, I know. But perhaps that will be on the other thread (if you have started one).

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm "Just" as if that is diminishing the holy spirit - which is the breath/blood/seed of JAH. It is also the water (of life) that Christ gives us, the (holy) spirit that He gives us to anoint us and make us sons (seed), that Christ breathed onto the apostles (breath), that God breathed into Adam (making Adam a living being and a son), and that Christ poured out for us (He did not pour out just His physical blood, but also holy spirit...
Agreed, here...
Are you sure you read what I wrote?

The holy spirit here is not a person. The holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm ...which He received from His Father without end).
... but not here. The Holy Spirit was present and at work at everywhere and at all times with Jesus, for sure. But Jesus did not, does not, and never will need the Spirit to be at work in Him, because He (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is God.
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives (him) the spirit without limit. John 3:34

Not to mention the fact that Paul states that all things come from the Father, THROUGH the Son (1 Corinth 8:6).

Not to mention the fact that Christ is the One who breathed holy spirit upon the apostles (which spirit came from his Father, given to Christ without end; without measure; without limit); that Christ is the One who chooses ("you did not choose me, but I chose you"; many are called, few are chosen), and that anointed ones (those anointed with holy spirit) are chosen ones.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm God can hear the blood (our blood), crying out to Him. If our blood can speak, how much more so do you think His blood (holy spirit) can speak? His holy spirit (breath, blood, seed) given to us, within us? So that it can remind us of something Christ has taught us; 'protest' within us when something is false; bear witness within us when something is true.
This is just "spiritual" mumbo jumbo, in my opinion. Moving on.
Funny, because I find most of the things you say (that are interpretations, etc) to be religious mumbo jumbo, yet I have still tried to reason with you.

Also funny (and I do mean sad funny), because what I said is supported by what is written. God can hear the blood crying out to Him, the blood does speak (obviously), even the author of Hebrews attests to this, as I shared those verses in the previous post. Paul refers to the spirit bearing witness with our spirit (Romans 8:16, though religion would again personify spirit where it need not be personified).

See also 1John 2: 20, 27


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #195

Post by William »

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:40 pm The holy spirit here is not a person. The holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH.
From what you are saying, "JAH" is a person - and has a form which breathes, bleeds and seeds...certainly if "JAH" is YHWH, then biblical stories about YHWH in relation to humans who witnessed him, do speak of YHWH as a being who has form. see [Inspired By YHWH] thread for more on this idea...

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #196

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:40 pm I mean no offense, Pinseeker... but why should I care what you have to say, over what I have learned from my Lord? If I have learned one thing from my Lord, and "Pinseeker" disagrees, what would that disagreement matter to me?
Yep, no offense to you either, Tammy, but... right back atcha. From me back to you. Precisely the same. Right back atcha.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:40 pm The holy spirit here is not a person. The holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH.
I appreciate your opinion, but the Holy Spirit is, most assuredly, a person, the third Person of the triune YHVH... which you will say -- and have said -- is my opinion, and I'm just fine with that. The GREAT IRONY here to me is that by saying, "(t)he holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH," you seem to be acknowledging the personhood of the Holy Spirit, even giving Him human characteristics.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:...which He received from His Father without end).
PinSeeker wrote:... but not here. The Holy Spirit was present and at work at everywhere and at all times with Jesus, for sure. But Jesus did not, does not, and never will need the Spirit to be at work in Him, because He (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is God.
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives (him) the spirit without limit. John 3:34
Yes, as a man, Jesus needed the Holy Spirit. This is why He can "sympathize with us," because "He was tempted in every way as we are," as the writer of Hebrews says. But as God, He did not and does not need the Spirit as mortal man does. But He set His deity aside for a time, emptied Himself -- which is not to say that he was no longer in possession of it, but that he didn't use equality with the Father (count equality with the Father as a thing to be grasped) -- for our sake. Your inability and/or refusal to acknowledge the dual nature of Jesus while on earth, which Paul makes very clear -- although, for sure, he is not the only one who does -- in Philippians 2 is troubling. I think no less of you, of course, but it is troubling.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Not to mention the fact that Paul states that all things come from the Father, THROUGH the Son (1 Corinth 8:6).
Well sure. The Spirit also proceeds from the Father and is sent in Christ's name (John 14).

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Not to mention the fact that Christ is the One who breathed holy spirit upon the apostles (which spirit came from his Father, given to Christ without end; without measure; without limit); that Christ is the One who chooses ("you did not choose me, but I chose you"; many are called, few are chosen), and that anointed ones (those anointed with holy spirit) are chosen ones.
Sure! But now you're talking about Christ's position in the Godhead and His ability, as Immanuel (God With Us). Thanks for acknowledging that.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
But I explained the Biblical definition of 'helper,' and that's the connection I was making between Eve and the Holy Spirit. It really has nothing to do with whether it's a name or not. Surely you got this; maybe not, but I was very clear. Again, the Greek word translated in John 14:16 as “helper” is παράκλητος (parakletos). It has a legal dimension; it refers to one who would be an advocate, one who pleads another's cause, and in its wider context, it speaks of comfort, of protection, of counsel, and of guidance. Some translations do in fact say "Comforter," which as acceptable, and "Protector," "Counselor," and "Guider" or "Guidance Counselor" are also acceptable), although not as all-encompassing as "Helper." AND SO, to deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit is a grievous interpretive error.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm ...I find most of the things you say (that are interpretations, etc) to be religious mumbo jumbo, yet I have still tried to reason with you.
To each his/her own. Again, though, right back atcha.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Also funny (and I do mean sad funny), because what I said is supported by what is written.
Opinion. I would say the same thing concerning myself. And you are more than welcome to disagree and call it my opinion (as if you need my blessing to do that... :)).

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm God can hear the blood crying out to Him, the blood does speak (obviously), even the author of Hebrews attests to this, as I shared those verses in the previous post. Paul refers to the spirit bearing witness with our spirit (Romans 8:16, though religion would again personify spirit where it need not be personified).
No, I agree with all this, but the context in which you are offering it is... well, in my opinion, anyway, spiritual mumbo-jumbo. And yes, funny in a sad way.

Okay. Is that enough for you? Probably not. Grace and peace to you anyway, in the name of Christ.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #197

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:40 pm The holy spirit here is not a person. The holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH.
"[clipped]" The GREAT IRONY here to me is that by saying, "(t)he holy spirit here is the breath/blood/seed of JAH," you seem to be acknowledging the personhood of the Holy Spirit, even giving Him human characteristics.
Then you are not understanding.

Is your blood a person? Is your breath a person? Is your 'seed' a person?

Of course not.

So "holy spirit" - the blood/breath/seed of JAH (of God) - is also not a person.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Not to mention the fact that Paul states that all things come from the Father, THROUGH the Son (1 Corinth 8:6).
Well sure. The Spirit also proceeds from the Father and is sent in Christ's name (John 14).
But comes through the Son.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Not to mention the fact that Christ is the One who breathed holy spirit upon the apostles (which spirit came from his Father, given to Christ without end; without measure; without limit); that Christ is the One who chooses ("you did not choose me, but I chose you"; many are called, few are chosen), and that anointed ones (those anointed with holy spirit) are chosen ones.
Sure!


Okay then.
But now you're talking about Christ's position in the Godhead and His ability, as Immanuel (God With Us). Thanks for acknowledging that.
No, that is you adding something.

I meant nothing more than what I said.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
But I explained the Biblical definition of 'helper,'
So then you can acknowledge that 'helper' is not a name; Christ did not name holy spirit.
Is that enough for you? Probably not.


Why do you keep asking me this? I'm not looking to you for answers, Pinseeker. I don't need you to respond. I said that I am content to leave previous posts to stand. I responded above to what you did not understand, but not much more than that.



Peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #198

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #198]
Is your blood a person?
Apparently it can act as a person. See Genesis story re blood crying out unto the lord...

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #199

Post by tam »

Peace to you William,
William wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #198]
Is your blood a person?
Apparently it can act as a person. See Genesis story re blood crying out unto the lord...
Yes, the blood can cry out to God; God can hear the blood.


But that does not make the blood a person.


Peace again to you.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #200

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #198]
Is your blood a person?
Apparently it can act as a person. See Genesis story re blood crying out unto the lord...
Or just possibly it's a figure of speech. Like when someone states, "My dogs are barking." They don't actually mean that their feet are making a sound via vocalization. Probably the same with the blood here especially given that it's a physical impossibility.


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