Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

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Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation
.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM
.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�


John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�


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Post #2

Post by Eloi »

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah:

Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations agitated And the peoples muttering an empty thing?  2 The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ 27 For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed,

2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised:

Deut.18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.

Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer. 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you.

3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him:

Psalm 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.�

Ephes.1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek:

Psalm 110:4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!�

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. 4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.� 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.�

5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.  8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.

Heb.1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father.

Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.�

How is that, that you say Jehovah in OT is Jesus in NT" ?????

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

HOW MANY SAVIOURS ?
Revelations won wrote: Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�
♦ RESPONSE The title SAVOUR ("god" "Lord" "stone", "rock" or "Father".. ) are not used exclusively for YHWH the Creator in scripture.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 303#912303
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote:
Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�

John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�.




♦ RESPONSE : In John 8 Jesus was not making a statement of identity,he was stating how long he has existed. He was not referencing the divine name, nor claiming it as a title
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote:John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
♦ RESPONSE : In the origjnal Greek second mention of the word "god" is without the definite article ( [strike]THE[/strike ] God), thus it acts as a description not a title. The meaning in Greek conveys the idea that THE WORD was godly, godlike, divine, "a god". It does not mean THE WORD was equal in power, position or age to YHWH

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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #6

Post by Eloi »

Acts 3:12 (...) Peter (...) said to the people: “Men of Israel, why are you so amazed at this, and why are you staring at us as though by personal power or godly devotion we have made him walk? 13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him. 14 Yes, you disowned that holy and righteous one, and you asked for a man who was a murderer to be given to you, 15 whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses. 16 And through his name, and by our faith in his name, this man whom you see and know has been made strong. The faith that is through him has made this man completely healthy in front of all of you. 17 And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers also did. 18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer.

No Christian in the First Century thought ever Jesus as Jehovah.

Heb. 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Jesus never taught something like that. Rather, he taught that Jehovah is his Father ... and also his God.

John 2:13 Now the passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And he found in the temple those selling cattle and sheep and doves and the money brokers in their seats. 15 So, after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple, and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of merchandise!� 17 His disciples called to mind that it is written: “The zeal for your house will eat me up.�

... 8:54 Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God; 55 and yet YOU have not known him. But I know him. And if I said I do not know him I should be like YOU, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

COLOSSIANS 2:9

Revelations won wrote:Colossians 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
♦ RESPONSE Paul refered to qualities the "dwelt in Jesus" being there as a result of Gods will. (compare colossians 1:19). Thus Paul could not be attributing infinity or omnipotence to Jesus as one cannot attribute or add to omnipotence. Just as referring to "human nature" means we share certain characteristisics but that doesn't mean there is not difference in rank, power and age, so Jesus perfectly reflecting Gods nature is not synonymous with him (Jesus) being equal in rank, power or age to YHWH (Jehovah).

The translation "Godhead" is misleading and some translators favor alternative renditions, which more accurately conveys the idea that Christ reflected YHWHS divine/ godly nature (not that YHWH literally lived inside Jesus or that Jesus /THE WORD was equal to Almighty God).

In short, "Like Father, like son" NOT "Father *is* son"
COLOSSIANS 2:9
Christian Standard Bible
For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ,

International Standard Version
because all the essence of deity inhabits him in bodily form

Weymouth New Testament
For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete

Christian Standard Bible
For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ,

Good News Translation
For the full content of divine nature lives in Christ, in his humanity,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily in Christ,

International Standard Version
because all the essence of deity inhabits him in bodily form.

NET Bible
For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form,


RELATED POSTS Colossians 1:19
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 881#934881
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RESPONSE Jesus never claimed equality with the God of the Hebrew scripture (JHWH) nor did he at any time refer to himself by the divine name YHWH/Jehovah. When dealing with the question of his identity he explicity lated he was Gods son.






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TRINITY "PROOF" TEXTS DEBUNKED!

ISAIAH 43:11 "besides me there is no savior"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p912303
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 53#p890753

ISAIAH 44:6 no other god
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 16#p907916

MALACHI 3:1
viewtopic.php?p=1088419#p1088419

MATTHEW 2:11 [PROSKYNEO] "they ... did him homage/WORSHIP"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p935727
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 89#p936289

MATTHEW 25:64 RIGHTS HAND
viewtopic.php?p=1041938#p1041938

MATTHEW 28:19 "... Father ... Son ... holy spirit... " ("trinity formula"?)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p936059

MATTHEW 28:20 "... always with you " (OMNIPRESENT?)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 47#p936147

Mark 2:5 : Only God can forgive sins (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p936180

Mark 2: 28 : Lord of the Sabbath
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 87#p935987

Mark 14:62
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p936192[/quote]

JOHN

ACTS 3:15 "author of life..."
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p936277

ACTS 20: 28 God's blood...
viewtopic.php?p=1070120#p1070120

2 CORINTHIANS 13:14 "grace of Jesus Christ", .. " love of God " "fellowship of the holy Spirit "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p936055

EPHESIANS 1:22-23 "head over all things"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p935039

PHILIPIANS COLOSSIANS TITUS 2:13 [ 2 PETER 1:1 ] "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p935634


HEBREWS 1:3 The brightness of his glory
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 10#p934910

HEBREWS 1:8 "God is thy throne"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p935602

HEBREWS 9:14 "blood of Christ, ... eternal spirit .. God"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 57#p936057

2 PETER 1:1 [TITUS 2:13 ] "God and of Jesus our Lord"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 34#p935634

1 JOHN 5:20 "... we are in union"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 38#p813238

REVELATION 7:17 "the heart of the throne"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 82#p935282
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p935328


REVELATION 22:1 "the throne of God and of the Lamb "
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 35#p935235

REVELATION 22:3 "his servants will worship him"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p935244


FOOTNOTES
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1007525
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FUTHERE READING: A scriptural understandjng of various concepts such as authority clzrifies Jesus real position in relation tomhis Father.

RELATED POSTS

**AUTHORITY **

Was Jesus authority ABSOLUTE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 99#p936599

Did Jesus place his words on the same level as Gods?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 02#p936602


** TITLES **

Judge
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p935079

Jesus's statements of subordination
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p335731

Scriptural reasons to conclude Jesus is not Almighty God
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p751572

Is Jesus "divine"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p870896

Did the Pharisees really believe Jesus had claimed to be Almighty God YHWH (John 10:33)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 04#p815104

Did early Christians believe in the trinity?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p858140

Was Jesus the YHWH of the "Old Testament"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p863696

Why is the word "trinity" not in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 86#p865186



To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Revelations won
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Post #10

Post by Revelations won »

In response to the JW responses,

1.Now, if I understand you correctly, it is your position that Jehovah is the “only savior� and that besides him there is “NO OTHER SAVIOR.�

2. Further, your responses are that “CHRIST IS NOT OUR SAVIOR.�

3. Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

4. Also it appears that you hereby deny the following scripture in
Acts 4: 12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�

5.Your answers would also appear to indicate that you also deny the atonement of Christ.

6. Are you saying that mens sins can be forgiven without the atonement of Christ?

7. Are you declaring that man can be saved and resurrected without CHRIST?

I trust you have clear and simple honest answers to the above issues. I would love to hear your responses.

Kind regards
RW

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