Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation
.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM
.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�


John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�


User avatar
PinSeeker
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #201

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Then you are not understanding.
Oh, I think it's possibly you who don't understand what you yourself are saying. But that's conjecture. No need to go any further with this.
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Is your blood a person? Is your breath a person? Is your 'seed' a person? Of course not.
No, but there would be no person without blood, breath, and seed. And vice-versa.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm So "holy spirit" - the blood/breath/seed of JAH (of God) - is also not a person.
Disagree. See above.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Not to mention the fact that Paul states that all things come from the Father, THROUGH the Son (1 Corinth 8:6).
PinSeeker wrote:Well sure. The Spirit also proceeds from the Father and is sent in Christ's name (John 14).
But comes through the Son.
No, is sent, after the Son, in the Son's name. "ut the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14:26)

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Not to mention the fact that Christ is the One who breathed holy spirit upon the apostles (which spirit came from his Father, given to Christ without end; without measure; without limit); that Christ is the One who chooses ("you did not choose me, but I chose you"; many are called, few are chosen), and that anointed ones (those anointed with holy spirit) are chosen ones.
PinSeeker wrote:Sure!
tam wrote:Okay then.
PinSeeker wrote:But now you're talking about Christ's position in the Godhead and His ability, as Immanuel (God With Us). Thanks for acknowledging that.
No, that is you adding something.
Nope.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm I meant nothing more than what I said.
Right, and that's the problem.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
tam wrote:No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
PinSeeker wrote:But I explained the Biblical definition of 'helper,'
So then you can acknowledge that 'helper' is not a name; Christ did not name holy spirit.
Yeah, okay. I don't think I ever intimated such. I just said Eve's name was Eve, and my wife has a name. Sorry that apparenlty threw you for some kind of loop. My point was that Eve was Adam's helper, brought to Adam by God -- and she was a person -- and my wife is my helper, brought to me by God -- and she is a person, too. The Holy Spirit is our Helper (in a much greater sense of course), sent by the Father in the Son's name, and given to us by God... and a _______________ (fill in the blank). :) The correct answer is, "Person." :D The name was never what I was getting at at all, but just the word 'helper,' what it means in the Bible, and the conclusion it inevitably leads to.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm I said that I am content to leave previous posts to stand.
Very well. Same here.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm I responded above to what you did not understand, but not much more than that.
Very well. And I responded... well, you can read.

Grace and peace to you.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #202

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #200]

What is blood which cry's out then? A non person? A non entity? A ghost?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #203

Post by William »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:21 pm
William wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:53 pm [Replying to tam in post #198]
Is your blood a person?
Apparently it can act as a person. See Genesis story re blood crying out unto the lord...
Or just possibly it's a figure of speech. Like when someone states, "My dogs are barking." They don't actually mean that their feet are making a sound via vocalization. Probably the same with the blood here especially given that it's a physical impossibility.


Tcg
We know that science can identify the blood of a person through DNA so it may be figurative of that, rather than prose meant to mean "I will get you for this Cain", - with God acting as the entity of vengeance/retribution on Able's behalf...

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #204

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Then you are not understanding.
Oh, I think it's possibly you who don't understand what you yourself are saying.


Riiight.

Because it makes so much more sense that you understand what I, myself, have said... better than I understand what I, myself, have said. You ever heard the term 'mansplaining', Pinseeker?

Come on now, lol.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Is your blood a person? Is your breath a person? Is your 'seed' a person? Of course not.
No,
So you should not have a problem understanding what I said and meant.
but there would be no person without blood, breath, and seed. And vice-versa.
Sure, your blood is part of you. But it is not an individual person inside of you.

The person whose blood/breath/seed it is that I referred to, is JAH. That blood/breath/seed is holy spirit.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm So "holy spirit" - the blood/breath/seed of JAH (of God) - is also not a person.
Disagree. See above.
Yes, I am aware you disagree. But I am explaining what I meant.

Since your blood is not an individual person inside of you, you should be able to grasp the idea that holy spirit (the blood/breath/seed of JAH) is not an individual person inside of Him.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Not to mention the fact that Paul states that all things come from the Father, THROUGH the Son (1 Corinth 8:6).
PinSeeker wrote:Well sure. The Spirit also proceeds from the Father and is sent in Christ's name (John 14).
But comes through the Son.
No, is sent, after the Son, in the Son's name. "ut the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14:26)
Pinseeker, did holy spirit come through Christ or not when He breathed holy spirit onto His apostles? If He BREATHED holy spirit onto them, how could that holy spirit not have been IN Him first, so as to come THROUGH Him?
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm I meant nothing more than what I said.
Right, and that's the problem.
It's a problem when someone doesn't mean more than what they say?

If that is how some people think, I understand how so many get misled when religion doesn't take Christ at His word, but instead adds and adds and adds to what He has said.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
tam wrote:Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
tam wrote:No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
PinSeeker wrote:But I explained the Biblical definition of 'helper,'
So then you can acknowledge that 'helper' is not a name; Christ did not name holy spirit.
Yeah, okay. I don't think I ever intimated such.

Jesus does refer to this "spirit" as "another helper," right? He gives "it" a name. - Pinseeker


Unless there is something new to respond to (something not already addressed in previous posts), I am going to move on.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #205

Post by William »

If God is not a ghost but an actual person with a personality, then it could be accepted that The Holy Ghost is not a person, as long as it does not have a personality...unless one is arguing that the Holy Ghost is the personality of God - then one has to ask "Is the personality a person"?

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14003
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #206

Post by William »

William wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:45 pm If God is not a ghost but an actual person with a personality, then it could be accepted that The Holy Ghost is not a person, as long as it does not have a personality...unless one is arguing that the Holy Ghost is the personality of God - then one has to ask "Is the personality a person"?
But then if "God is a spirit" and a spirit is a ghost...is God not a person? Or if God is a Holy Ghost and God is a person then the Holy Ghost is a person...

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #207

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Tammy,

I am happy to respond to your question regarding Psalm 110:1.

We should clearly understand that Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. For Christ shall sit on the Lord’s right hand and it is clear from the scriptures that He (meaning Christ) shall be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

You should clearly understand that David is first referring to God the Father who who is saying unto God the son and is telling the Son to sit at his right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

This is further identified in verse 4 wherein he states that the Lord (Jesus Christ is to be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek).

Your problem is that of confusing the role of the Father with the role of Jehovah.

The creations referred to in the Bible were done under the direction of God the Father by God the son or more correctly identified as (Jehovah/Jesus the Christ).

You should so clearly observe that by either name and by both names, the heavens and the earth were created.

Verse 1

The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool





Psalm 110:
(A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7
He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.


Also observe what Christ taught in:

Mark 12:
36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luke 20:
39
Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
40
And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.
41
And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
42
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

44
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?


Acts 2:
29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.




Hebrews 1:

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Tammy you were most insistent that I would answer your question regarding Psalms 110:1. I was very happy to respond to your request. I also listed the additional above scriptures which should give further evidence in support of my answers.

I humbly strive to follow the counsel found in James 1:5 through 7 when seeking answers to the things of God.



Kind regards,
RW

User avatar
PinSeeker
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #208

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:29 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Then you are not understanding.
Oh, I think it's possibly you who don't understand what you yourself are saying.

Riiight. Because it makes so much more sense that you understand what I, myself, have said... better than I understand what I, myself, have said.
It is a little upside-down, yes. But it is a distinct possibility. Not to compare myself to Jesus, of course, but you do remember what He replied when James and John asked to sit at His right and left hand in His kingdom, right? He told them that they did not know what they were asking, and asked them if they were able to drink from the cup of suffering He was about to drink. And they said, "Oh yes! We are able!" Well, no, they weren't. And they didn't remotely know the scope of what they were asking, or what they were thinking themselves capable of doing. Like I said... not on the same level, but the same kind of thing.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Is your blood a person? Is your breath a person? Is your 'seed' a person? Of course not.
No,
So you should not have a problem understanding what I said and meant.
Yes, I have no absolutely no problem understanding what you meant, and/or what you apparently didn't understand about what you yourself were saying. See above.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm but there would be no person without blood, breath, and seed. And vice-versa.
Sure, your blood is part of you. But it is not an individual person inside of you. The person whose blood/breath/seed it is that I referred to, is JAH. That blood/breath/seed is holy spirit.
You're comparing apples to oranges again, apparently. Tammy, the Father is spirit. John 4:24, right? Well yes, right. We can't really compare God to human beings, so let's leave that where it belongs. Your description of the Holy Spirit as "the blood/breath/seed of JAH" is erroneous; there is nowhere in the Bible that we read that. Yes, I know you are referring to John 20:22, where Jesus breathed on His disciples and exhorted them to receive the Holy Spirit. This should not be seen as the actual giving of the Holy Spirit to His disciples; the Holy Spirit did not actually come to them until Pentecost, as documented in Acts 2, which was after Jesus's ascension to the right hand of the Father. It should likewise not be seen as evidence that the Holy Spirit did not have any presence in the lives of the disciples prior to the point of Jesus breathing on them. What is to be understood here is that this is a foretaste to the disciples of what would happen at Pentecost. This is a commissioning, John's Great Commission, like Matthew's in chapter 28 of his gospel.

tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Since your blood is not an individual person inside of you, you should be able to grasp the idea that holy spirit (the blood/breath/seed of JAH) is not an individual person inside of Him.
A non sequitur. See above. But the Holy Spirit is a Person. Spirit, of course, but a person. As Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” We are all physically born of a woman (a person). Some of us -- God's elect -- are born of the Spirit (also a person, but with a capital 'P', as He is of God, the One Who "embodies" the power of the Most High, as Gabriel essentially said to Mary in Luke 1:35). So again, to make it very clear, we are physically born of a physical person (a woman), and we are spiritually born of a spiritual Person (the Holy Spirit).

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Pinseeker, did holy spirit come through Christ or not when He breathed holy spirit onto His apostles?
No, Tammy, the Holy Spirit did not come through Christ when He breathed onto His disciples (not His apostles; the apostles were not apostles until Pentecost, and there were more than just those who would be apostles there). See above.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm If He BREATHED holy spirit onto them, how could that holy spirit not have been IN Him first, so as to come THROUGH Him?
Well the 'if' is not the case, so the 'how' is not, either. Again, see above.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm I meant nothing more than what I said.
Right, and that's the problem.
It's a problem when someone doesn't mean more than what they say?[/quote]
LOL! No, Tammy... No... <eyeroll> It's a problem when someone can't see the full meaning or scope of what is actually said... and it's a problem (at least sometimes) when one refuses to make simple, elementary inferences -- that are still true -- from what is actually said.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm If that is how some people think, I understand how so many get misled when religion doesn't take Christ at His word, but instead adds and adds and adds to what He has said.
Well that's kind of what you just did.
tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:10 pm Yes, Eve was given to Adam as a helpmate in the Garden, but 'helper/helpmate' is not her name.
LOL! I said nothing of the sort.
No, but you did say that 'helper' was a name - that Christ named holy spirit (which is untrue)... and you used Eve being a helper as somehow being an example of this.
But I explained the Biblical definition of 'helper,'
So then you can acknowledge that 'helper' is not a name; Christ did not name holy spirit.
Yeah, okay. I don't think I ever intimated such.
Jesus does refer to this "spirit" as "another helper," right? He gives "it" a name. - Pinseeker
Right, I saw that. I agree with you that helper is not the Holy Spirit's actual name. I realize that's how it looks in print, but that's not really what I meant; sometimes we say or write things that are contrary to what we really mean, or appear that way, and I did so here. My apologies for my lack of clarity. But in explanation, figuratively, we can "name" all kinds of things, "give a name" to this or that. And that's the sense in which I meant this. Yes, the Holy Spirit is our Helper; this is His function (His role in the Godhead), but not His actual name. So Jesus did give the Holy Spirit a name, figuratively speaking, and that's what I meant. HOWEVER... surely you knew there was going to be a "however," or a "but," right? :D ACTUALLY... it is a literal name in the same sense as the prophet Isaiah when he says Jesus will have many names (9:6), all of them, particularly Wonderful Counselor.

NOTE: Names. Names are VERY, VERY, VERRRRRRRY important in the Bible. Three points:
1.) Jesus (or Yeshua, or Jaheshua) was only the Son's given name on earth, right? God told Joseph and Mary to name Him that, of course, through the angel Gabriel, but still. This name has great meaning, as you know.
2.) If we talk about all us Christians, our human names are not really our names, are they? No, we will each be given a new name in glory (Revelation 2:17). Oh, we'll still have the names we have now, too, of course. Hopefully, we can talk about it there... :)
3.) The Holy Spirit has no given earthly name, nor does the Father. But they all do have a Name... :) An everlasting Name.

tam wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:06 pm Unless there is something new to respond to (something not already addressed in previous posts), I am going to move on.
Ah yes, leave the door ajar. Don't lock yourself out, right? :) I've done the same thing a time or two. :D Suit yourself.

Grace and peace to you.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:16 am, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #209

Post by tam »

Peace to you RW,
Revelations won wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:58 pm Dear Tammy,

I am happy to respond to your question regarding Psalm 110:1.

We should clearly understand that Psalm 110 is a Messianic Psalm of David. For Christ shall sit on the Lord’s right hand and it is clear from the scriptures that He (meaning Christ) shall be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

You should clearly understand that David is first referring to God the Father who who is saying unto God the son and is telling the Son to sit at his right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

This is further identified in verse 4 wherein he states that the Lord (Jesus Christ is to be a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek).

Your problem is that of confusing the role of the Father with the role of Jehovah.
I'm sorry but I don't understand how that is possible.

The One who is speaking to Christ in Psalm 110:1 is [YHWH] (whom you are referring to as "Jehovah").

You acknowledge that it is the Father speaking to Christ, and that is true. But that Father is identified as YHWH at Psalm 110:1.



The creations referred to in the Bible were done under the direction of God the Father by God the son or more correctly identified as (Jehovah/Jesus the Christ).

You should so clearly observe that by either name and by both names, the heavens and the earth were created.

Verse 1

The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
This verse reads:

YHWH said to my Lord (to Christ), sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

YHWH is the One who is speaking TO Christ. Right?

Also observe what Christ taught in:

Mark 12:
36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luke 20:
39
Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
40
And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.
41
And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
42
And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43
Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

44
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
Yes, I have no issue at all with any of these verses that you are posting. But none of them change the fact that YHWH is speaking to Christ, right? And if YHWH is speaking to Christ, how is YHWH the same person AS Christ?


My question is the same for all the verses that you have supplied.



Tammy you were most insistent that I would answer your question regarding Psalms 110:1. I was very happy to respond to your request. I also listed the additional above scriptures which should give further evidence in support of my answers.
I appreciate your responses, I do. I just do not see the answer to the question I asked, in those responses.



I humbly strive to follow the counsel found in James 1:5 through 7 when seeking answers to the things of God.
Good council. I do not wish to get in your way, and so unless you wish to discuss further with me, I will wish you peace and move on (from this thread/question).



Kind regards,
RW

Thank you and peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
PinSeeker
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #210

Post by PinSeeker »

"...if YHWH is speaking to Christ, how is YHWH the same person AS Christ?"

It's not quite the same thing, of course, because we can't really compare apples to oranges -- ourselves to the triune YHVH -- but we talk to ourselves all the time, even sometimes out loud. :) And we listen to ourselves. :) And we obey ourselves... well, most of the time, anyway... :D

Grace and peace to all.

Post Reply