Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

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Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

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Post by Revelations won »

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation
.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM
.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�


John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�


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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #211

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Tammy,

I have responded to your question as requested. It is obvious that we respectfully disagree on the meaning and understanding of Psalms 110:1.

Now it is your turn since you have not responded to the following questions I asked of you in the following:


You should carefully consider and answer the following 2 questions:

1. Is Jesus Christ the “Holy one of Israel” who alone, has provided the gift of resurrection for all mankind?


2. Ezekiel 37: 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


If you claim that the scriptures above do not apply to the great I AM later known as Jehovah and later known as Jesus the Christ, then please present scriptural evidence showing otherwise.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #212

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Revelations won wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:55 am Dear Tammy,

I have responded to your question as requested. It is obvious that we respectfully disagree on the meaning and understanding of Psalms 110:1.
You did respond, yes, but I don't think you ever answered the question I asked. I think you danced around it. I don't know why it is so hard to answer, except that the answer shows that "YHWH" and "Christ" are not the same person.

I will respond to your question though if you wish:
Now it is your turn since you have not responded to the following questions I asked of you in the following:


You should carefully consider and answer the following 2 questions:

1. Is Jesus Christ the “Holy one of Israel” who alone, has provided the gift of resurrection for all mankind?
Jaheshua (not "Jesus") is the Holy One of Israel, as well as the Holy One of God, but He does not provide the gift of life (or resurrection) alone, since that life and power has been given to Him by His Father (by YHWH).



2. Ezekiel 37: 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
This is referring to YHWH. He does accomplish this, through His Son (Jaheshua), giving His Son power and authority to do this.

Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

They are not the same person.
If you claim that the scriptures above do not apply to the great I AM later known as Jehovah and later known as Jesus the Christ, then please present scriptural evidence showing otherwise.
The scripture in Ezekiel applies to God (YHWH). This is done through His Son (Jaheshua).

Psalm 110:1 is scriptural evidence that these two are not the same person, but I cannot get you to see that.

Christ also said that His Father is the One the Jews claim as their God. As I am sure you must know, the Jews claim YHWH as their God.

My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. John 8:54

Christ is not His own Father, nor His own God.

"Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"



All that being said, I really do not need to find a scripture to disprove the claim that YHWH is "Jesus", though there are such verses (some listed above, including Psalm 110:1). Christ does not ever teach that He is "YHWH", so I have no reason to accept it. He also does not teach He is one part of a trinity (so I do not accept the trinity). He also does not teach that He is Michael the archangel. So I do not accept that either. He also does not teach that there is a Father above YHWH. So I do not accept that either. Everything everyone puts together on all these things is interpretation, reading INTO the text, listening to others who came before them who interpreted (be it a religion, or a religious leader, etc).

Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #213

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #213]
Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.
Where in form, is YHWH represented?

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #214

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #213]
Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.
Where in form, is YHWH represented?
I don't know what you mean, William.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #215

Post by William »

tam wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #213]
Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.
Where in form, is YHWH represented?
I don't know what you mean, William.
Is YHWH represented in form?

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #216

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 pm
tam wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #213]
Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.
Where in form, is YHWH represented?
I don't know what you mean, William.
Is YHWH represented in form?
What do you mean by this?

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #217

Post by William »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:41 pm
William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 pm
tam wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:10 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #213]
Christ states very simply that He is the Son of God (and JAH is the God to whom He is referring); that He is the begotten Son of God. I am taking Him at His word. Anything else would be a lack of faith in Him. He also states that He is the person David calls 'my lord' in Psalm 110:1, and we can see from that verse that "YHWH" is speaking to the person David calls 'my Lord' in Psalm 110:1. So "YHWH" and Christ cannot be the same person.
Where in form, is YHWH represented?
I don't know what you mean, William.
Is YHWH represented in form?
What do you mean by this?
Christians in general have an image which for them represents The Creator. But does The Creator actually have a form?

In relation to the question "Is YHWH represented in form?" YHWH is an image of The Creator [represented in words which give form within the mind of a human being] so in that sense, the answer would be " Yes. YHWH is represented in form."

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #218

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to William in post #218]

Humans just don't know what Jehovah's person is like. We have no inkling of what the spirit world is really like. Jehovah must have a form, but it's not for us to imagine. We do, however, in our minds, think of Him as having a form such as we have.

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #219

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Tam& Onewithhim,

We should all remember that :

The Christ asked the disciples “whom say men that I am?” Various answers were given. He then directed the question to the disciples.

Peters answer was clear and direct “Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God”. Peters answer was clearly not one concluded by deductive reasoning for as Christ so clearly attested , “Blessed art thou Simon Bar jonah for flesh and blood hath not revealed this into thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Thus only by the eternal principle of direct revelation only could Peter know the answer. You should clearly understand that by your very creeds that you must rely on conclusions derived by the application of deductive reasoning.

Modern sectarian Christianity is vastly a mass of confusion, because there is virtually no agreement on who or what they worship, or what is required for salvation, which has resulted in the formation of thousands of different sects. The concept of “One Lord, one faith and one baptism is non existent.

My position is that “we believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal and that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”

In the third century A.D. hundreds of clerics by deductive reasoning, have after much argument declared that the heavens are now closed and that there can be no further revelation from God.

I would ask, wherein does puny man have any right to place a “gag order upon the creator?”

Thus by your own creeds you admit that you cannot have the testimony of Jesus, for the very “testimony of Jesus” is obtained by “the spirit of prophesy” or revelation.

The scribes and pharisees in Christ’s day walked in blindness at noonday because they could not accept new revelation and commandments as then given by the Lord. Does not this very condition and attitude exist in our day as well?

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

Post #220

Post by tam »

Peace to you RW,
Revelations won wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:07 am Dear Tam& Onewithhim,

We should all remember that :

The Christ asked the disciples “whom say men that I am?” Various answers were given. He then directed the question to the disciples.

Peters answer was clear and direct “Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God”. Peters answer was clearly not one concluded by deductive reasoning for as Christ so clearly attested , “Blessed art thou Simon Bar jonah for flesh and blood hath not revealed this into thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Thus only by the eternal principle of direct revelation only could Peter know the answer.
But is this not also what I have testified to: that Jaheshua is the Messiah (the Christ), the Son of the Living God.

How then is that a mere creed?

The trinity is a creed.

Believing what Christ has said about Himself, believing the same revelation that was given to Peter, that is not a creed.

I want to also point out that you asked for a scriptural discussion:
I challenge the JW’s or Any one else who can refute each and every scripture I have used as evidence, to prove that Christ is not the great Jehovah, please feel free to present your debate showing that all the scriptures I have used to be false or wrong. I do not need philosophical or private interpretations. Please provide other scriptures to prove an opposing view.
You asked for scriptures to prove an opposing view, so that is what you received. If you wanted a discussion on a revelation, then you would need to provide the revelation. At that point, I would still do as my Lord has taught me to do: test the "inspired expression" the message; the claim. Test of course against Him (His word; ask Him), and test against love (for God is love, and what comes from Him is also love).

You should clearly understand that by your very creeds that you must rely on conclusions derived by the application of deductive reasoning.
What creed are you referring to please?

Modern sectarian Christianity is vastly a mass of confusion, because there is virtually no agreement on who or what they worship, or what is required for salvation, which has resulted in the formation of thousands of different sects. The concept of “One Lord, one faith and one baptism is non existent.
Sure, but I am not part of that religion. That religion is the one that comes up with the creed - aka - the trinity.
My position is that “we believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal and that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”
I have no problem with that position, but that does not mean accept whatever someone claims. I personally must do what my Lord has taught me I must do: test the 'inspired expression'.
In the third century A.D. hundreds of clerics by deductive reasoning, have after much argument declared that the heavens are now closed and that there can be no further revelation from God.
I don't know how they came to their conclusion, but their conclusion is not true.

I would ask, wherein does puny man have any right to place a “gag order upon the creator?”
He does not, but I never claimed that he did. I would be the last person to suggest that God or His Son can no longer speak or teach. Christ is the Living Word of God. He speaks; He teaches; He calls His sheep by name and they listen to His voice.
Thus by your own creeds you admit that you cannot have the testimony of Jesus, for the very “testimony of Jesus” is obtained by “the spirit of prophesy” or revelation.
I do not know where you are getting this from. I do not think I have said anything that could lead you to this conclusion about me.
The scribes and pharisees in Christ’s day walked in blindness at noonday because they could not accept new revelation and commandments as then given by the Lord. Does not this very condition and attitude exist in our day as well?
I'm not sure this is the reason they walked in blindness at noonday, but yes, the condition of blindness does exist in our day as well.


Kind regards,
RW
Thank you and peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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