Hailstones in Revelation

[2timothy316]

"Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great." (Rev. 16:21)

What is this talking about? Is it literal? Is it symbolic? Even though people know the hailstones are falling from Heaven, why are they blaspheming God?

[PinSeeker]

As the dragon stands on the seashore (12:17), a beast emerges from the sea. This beast is sometimes identified with the Antichrist (1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7) or the man of lawlessness (2 Thess. 2:3-12). Its blasphemous words and demand for worship reinforce the connections between these predictions of a final, future opponent to Christ's reign. Yet the imagery of Daniel 7 that appears in the description of the beast shows that it represents not only a future individual (or organization, such as the U.N.) but also present world powers that wage Satan's spiritual war against the Lamb and His church.

Most dispensationalists, and many other futurists, think the first beast is a political world leader or organization and the second beast is his religious counterpart, who enforces worship of the first beast. Such is not the case. Because it expresses a general principle of Satanic opposition, we may expect multiple manifestations, which include the first century, the final crisis, and all times in between.

Again, in reading John's Revelation, we should not try to "puzzle" anything in Revelation out -- make a one-to-one correlations with present or future entities -- but rather see the big picture: Christ has won the final victory, accomplishing it at Calvary ("It is finished!"), and we can live now -- despite tyranny of any individual, organization, or state today -- with absolute certainty, as if that is already the case. In this way, all who read aloud, hear, and keep the words of Revelation -- from the first century on, from the time of John's writing of Revelation on -- are blessed.

Grace and peace to all.

[woodtick]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #30]

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #30]
What you've just described is what I use to believe in 25-30 years ago. I began questioning everything about the time of the first Iraq war, and esp. after 911 which I believe IS the first seal.

The beasts and their order of appearance are the order of world empires that will involve God's people. Each conquering the one before it. Starting with Babylon and King Belshazzar who was conquered by Cyrus the Great of the Medo-Persian empire. Who was then conquered by Alexander the Great who ruled over Macedonia, Greece and the Persian empire. Finally the last beast is Rome which subdues Persia, Macedonia and Greece.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "world empires that will involve God's people." You presume the empires in Daniel 2's great statue are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, then Rome. I disagree. The scriptures clearly declare that the arms of silver represents the Empire of the Medes which makes Persia the thighs of bronze and Greece the legs of iron.

Beast of Daniel 7:4
Who it Represents: Babylon. In the Bible Babylon is described as being both an lion and has having wings of an eagle. (Jeremiah 4:5-7; 50:17; Lamentations 4:19; Habakkuk 1:6-8.)

It's impossible for the lion to be Babylon. Daniel chapter 7 was written in the first year of Belshazzar, and can be said that he was the last king of Babylon, and about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2. In other words, the Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before - and was on it's way out - when Daniel 7 was written.

It's not impossible. Babylon was still the dominate kingdom over Jehovah's people when the book of Daniel was written. The prophesies follow only the world powers that deal with God's people. It would have no reason to follow any other governments. Yet you say it's not Babylon then who is it and why would it matter to Israel and Belshazzar. Why would they be care about a prophecy if it didn't involve them? Also I do not presume that the gold head of the statue is Babylon. Daniel 2:38 says that Belshazzar's kingdom is the golden head of the statue. There is no presuming this, the Bible tells us it is so. There is no indication that the first beast [kingdom] in chapter 7 would begin with anyone else except Babylon as there is no one else that would matter to the Israelites or to Balshazzar.

"And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another....After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."

You quote Habakkuk 1:6-8
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs. They are terrible and dreadful:(same as Daniel 7) their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves. Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat.

Who does God say he will raise up in the last days? The Chaldeans - who are the Babylonians - who today are the Arab's and Muslims.

There is nothing to indicate this refers to our day. Babylon' was already on the rise to power when they took Nineveh as stated in Nahum 3:7. Nahum lived before Habakkuk and both lived before Daniel. It would make since that Daniel would have known the writings of both. Therefore it would make since that Habakkuk was speaking about the Chaldeans of his time and not about a prophecy to be fulfilled in our day. Also that Daniel would be familiar about Babylon being called a lion and an eagle thus when he had the dream of a lion/eagle beast he would have known who that represented.

The four beast in Daniel 7 are NOT a progression of empires. They are end time empires that exist on earth in together in the last days.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Chapter 7 has nothing to do with chapter 2 and it's not a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat the same sequence of kingdoms of Daniel 2 in chapter 7? Two different visions by the same author depicting the same thing? Why the repeat? Were there shortcomings in Daniel 2 that required repetition?

There is no evidence that it would be other kingdoms. Remember, the statue was Balshazzar's dream. The beasts was Daniel's dream. Chapter 7 goes into more detail how each power will act.

Beast of Daniel 7:5
"And look! another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, Get up, eat much flesh."

Who it represents: Media and Persia. (Daniel 2:39; 5:28; 8:3; 8:20)
Incorrect. The only reason you believe that is because you believe this to be a repeat of Daniel 2.

Again, if you think it's incorrect then who does it represent and what does it have to do with the nation of Ancient Israel? Simply stating something is incorrect doesn't make a person right.

Beast of Daniel 7:6
“After this I kept watching, and look! another beast, like a leopard, but on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. And the beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule."

Who it represents: Alexander the Great's rule of Macedonia and Greece. After the death of Alexander the Great, his kingdom was divided up by his four generals. This is where we tie in the 'four heads' of the leopard. Daniel was not told the name Alexander. To get this answer we have to look to the history books and see who conquered the Persians. That person was Alexander the Great.

I know that interpretation well. However, Alexander the great is represented by the he goat in Daniel 8. The only reason you believe the leopard represents Alexander is because you believe Daniel 7 is a repeat of Daniel 2.

Leopards are a peculiar animal and could represent a country where leopards live like India or Northern African countries up to Egypt, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka.

Yet these countries have nothing to do with ancient Israel being dominated by any of these countries and Israel never was. You are correct though that Alexander the Great is represented by the Goat in Daniel 8.
Your logic that something isn't right because it's a repeat is not a solid argument. Bible prophecy is often repeated by the same writer. Isaiah is a good example of that. Exodus is too. Jehovah told Moses many times that Pharaoh's hard would become hardened. Just because it was repeated doesn't mean the prophecy is about a different Pharaoh.

All this leads us to the Beast of Revelation 13:1, 2. Where we read that this beast has something from all the beast in Daniel 7. The bear, the lion, the leopard and the ten horns of the last beast. There is only one organization that we know of today is mash up of many nations that has been, "given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (Rev 13:7) That is the United Nations.

Is the UN a dreadful and terrible organization?

By your standards or by God's? The UN claims it can bring 'peace and security' to the world. This is something only Jehovah God can do and to say otherwise is to speak blasphemous words. (Revelation 13:5)

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible,

How is the UN 'strong exceedingly'?

"...and strong exceedingly;"

The UN and their military isn't the powerhouse you may think it is. Countries do what they want anyway.

It's not about its military. Its about its influence on the two most powerful things on earth. Nuclear weapons and the word's economy. A good example is North Korea. Look at the dismal state that country is in without a single UN troop stepping foot in it. We still have yet to see what the prophecy in Daniel holds for this world wide power.

How does 'great iron teeth' fit the UN? In Daniel 2 the iron and clay have the Arabs written all over it and represents the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam, not Rome, the UN, or anything else. Sunni being the IRON.

"...and it had great iron teeth.

How does the UN devour and brake in pieces? That goes 100% against what the organization stands for.

The fourth beast in Daniel 7 is Rome not the UN. The UN is depicted in Revelation.

"...it devoured and brake in pieces,"

The beast [Rome] itself is not breaking into pieces here. What it tramples it is breaking into pieces.

After breaking in pieces it stamps the rest of it out. I don't know exactly what that means, and I have no idea how the UN could ever fit any of this.

That is because the UN is not the 4th beast. The 4th beast is Rome as I pointed out in my other post.

I believe this fourth beast represents terrorism, world domination, Islam and Babylon the Great. Since its inception they've been stealing, killing, and destroying. Islam has devoured about every religion in the region and can hardly find a church or a Christian in many Arab/Islamic countries today.

Well, at least you're trying to understand it all. That is more than 99% of the world. Most don't even want to try to understand these scriptures.

...and stamped the residue with the feet of it:

BEFORE IT -
...and it was diverse (different) from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7's fourth beast is responsible for the Revelation 13 and 17 beast.

The beast in Revelation 13 says "And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea." What is the 'sea'? Rev 17 tells us what the sea or waters represent, "He said to me: “The waters that you saw....mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues."
I use the Bible to interpret the Bible. There is only one power that has come from many peoples, crowds and nations. That's the UN.

A cannot prophesy about a kingdom rising that had already risen without being considered a false prophet and that's what that theory does. It makes Daniel a false prophet.

I assure you, Daniel is no false prophet. Yet we have something that he didn't have. We have the earth's historical record and the book of Revelation to make sense of his dreams. After all Daniel couldn't understand what he had just witnessed. "Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end." (Dan 12:8, 9) The Bible goes on to say. "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:10)

[woodtick]

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