christianity test

[cristian_gavrilescu]

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. (Mark 10:17-19)

you are a christian if you agree with these laws
or you believe differently?

[WeSee]

...
you are a christian if you agree with these laws
or you believe differently?

Bible tells Christian means a disciple of Jesus, and a disciple of Jesus is person who:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

In 8:31-32 Jesus explains that His true disciples abide in His word, know the truth and have been made free.

An open question is, "What does it mean to abide in His word?".
It means to actually "live" His word.
Jesus' word includes not only the words Jesus spoke that cristian_gavrilescu quoted in Mark 10:17-19 and Matthew 7:22-23, but the other words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry as well.
Living His word entails not only "believing" and "following" His word, but truly KEEPing His word.
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they do not truly "abide in" (live) those words.

Another open question is, "'free' from what?". Jesus explains a few verses later:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
The answer Jesus give is "free" from "commit[ing] sin".
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they commit sin.

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

[brianbbs67]

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40)

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. (Mark 10:17-19)

you are a christian if you agree with these laws
or you believe differently?

Jesus, in these verses, is summarizing the law. An Isrealite tradition practiced throughout history. The summary did not negate the rest of the law. It just encapsulated the spirit of the law. Jesus' summary followed the pattern of the decalogue. The first ones are about loving YHVH. The second are about loving neighbor(and self). Notice Jesus mentions some more of the commands.

Christ taught the law without the man made traditions that prevented man from following YHVH.

So, yes I agree with the law. How do you think Christ says "get away from me you workers of lawlessness , I never knew you" ? They taught against the law. If you take away even the least of these commands, you will be least. Especially if you teach others to do so.

[emilynghiem]

...
you are a christian if you agree with these laws
or you believe differently?

Bible tells Christian means a disciple of Jesus, and a disciple of Jesus is person who:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

In 8:31-32 Jesus explains that His true disciples abide in His word, know the truth and have been made free.

An open question is, "What does it mean to abide in His word?".
It means to actually "live" His word.
Jesus' word includes not only the words Jesus spoke that cristian_gavrilescu quoted in Mark 10:17-19 and Matthew 7:22-23, but the other words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry as well.
Living His word entails not only "believing" and "following" His word, but truly KEEPing His word.
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they do not truly "abide in" (live) those words.

Another open question is, "'free' from what?". Jesus explains a few verses later:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
The answer Jesus give is "free" from "commit[ing] sin".
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they commit sin.

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

[WeSee]

...
you are a christian if you agree with these laws
or you believe differently?

Bible tells Christian means a disciple of Jesus, and a disciple of Jesus is person who:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

In 8:31-32 Jesus explains that His true disciples abide in His word, know the truth and have been made free.

An open question is, "What does it mean to abide in His word?".
It means to actually "live" His word.
Jesus' word includes not only the words Jesus spoke that cristian_gavrilescu quoted in Mark 10:17-19 and Matthew 7:22-23, but the other words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry as well.
Living His word entails not only "believing" and "following" His word, but truly KEEPing His word.
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they do not truly "abide in" (live) those words.

Another open question is, "'free' from what?". Jesus explains a few verses later:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
The answer Jesus give is "free" from "commit[ing] sin".
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they commit sin.

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

I'll try again. Perhaps it'll help to focus on one point and one point only.

You wrote the following:

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.

Jesus clearly speaks of the righteous who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to His coming. Their righteousness did not come to them "through Christ". Their righteousness existed PRIOR to the coming of Jesus.

Yet you claim that " righteousness...always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

How does your claim not fly in the face of what Jesus said?

[emilynghiem]

Bible tells Christian means a disciple of Jesus, and a disciple of Jesus is person who:

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

In 8:31-32 Jesus explains that His true disciples abide in His word, know the truth and have been made free.

An open question is, "What does it mean to abide in His word?".
It means to actually "live" His word.
Jesus' word includes not only the words Jesus spoke that cristian_gavrilescu quoted in Mark 10:17-19 and Matthew 7:22-23, but the other words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry as well.
Living His word entails not only "believing" and "following" His word, but truly KEEPing His word.
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they do not truly "abide in" (live) those words.

Another open question is, "'free' from what?". Jesus explains a few verses later:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
The answer Jesus give is "free" from "commit[ing] sin".
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they commit sin.

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

I'll try again. Perhaps it'll help to focus on one point and one point only.

You wrote the following:

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.

Jesus clearly speaks of the righteous who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to His coming. Their righteousness did not come to them "through Christ". Their righteousness existed PRIOR to the coming of Jesus.

Yet you claim that " righteousness...always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

How does your claim not fly in the face of what Jesus said?

Jesus was ALWAYS in heaven with God.
His manifestation through people on earth comes later through the
process of embodiment and fulfillment.

So yes, the righteousness is still from God through Christ.
On a heavenly level that is self-existent.

And then you and I and all the humans you see 'debating' online,
sharing and trying to reach a perfect agreement,
we are STILL in PROCESS of manifesting this "righteousness"
in our thoughts, words and actions. Still working on that.

You can see it, where it aligns with God's Word.
Other people do not see ANYTHING we are talking about,
so we are not all there yet.

But Jesus being the Word of God incarnate
is already there. And always was.

[WeSee]

In 8:31-32 Jesus explains that His true disciples abide in His word, know the truth and have been made free.

An open question is, "What does it mean to abide in His word?".
It means to actually "live" His word.
Jesus' word includes not only the words Jesus spoke that cristian_gavrilescu quoted in Mark 10:17-19 and Matthew 7:22-23, but the other words Jesus spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry as well.
Living His word entails not only "believing" and "following" His word, but truly KEEPing His word.
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they do not truly "abide in" (live) those words.

Another open question is, "'free' from what?". Jesus explains a few verses later:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
The answer Jesus give is "free" from "commit[ing] sin".
Yet many count themselves as "true disciples" even though they commit sin.

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

I'll try again. Perhaps it'll help to focus on one point and one point only.

You wrote the following:

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.

Jesus clearly speaks of the righteous who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to His coming. Their righteousness did not come to them "through Christ". Their righteousness existed PRIOR to the coming of Jesus.

Yet you claim that " righteousness...always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

How does your claim not fly in the face of what Jesus said?

Jesus was ALWAYS in heaven with God.
His manifestation through people on earth comes later through the
process of embodiment and fulfillment.

So yes, the righteousness is still from God through Christ.
On a heavenly level that is self-existent.

And then you and I and all the humans you see 'debating' online,
sharing and trying to reach a perfect agreement,
we are STILL in PROCESS of manifesting this "righteousness"
in our thoughts, words and actions. Still working on that.

You can see it, where it aligns with God's Word.
Other people do not see ANYTHING we are talking about,
so we are not all there yet.

But Jesus being the Word of God incarnate
is already there. And always was.

Let's see if I understand you correctly:
1) Jesus existed PRIOR to His coming to call sinners to repentance.
2) The righteous in no need of repentance that existed PRIOR to to His coming to call sinners to repentance were made righteous through Jesus.

Do I understand you correctly?

[emilynghiem]

Hi @WeSee
I think this is really about two totally different levels, one human one divine.

A. on a DIVINE level where God's Word is already written, and all
history over time is God's will already done, then the righteousness
in Jesus was, is, and always has been. so that part is timeless and eternal.

B. For the HUMAN experience, this is totally relative to which situation you are talking about.
I cannot answer for ALL human situations and experiences EVER because they
all happen at different times, rates, places; in the past, present or future.
I am not God and I do not make that call or have knowledge to make any such judgments.

What I can speak to is my own experience and understanding
where I have seen people go through this process of establishing justice and peace,
in any number of ways, stages or ORDER of the steps.

@WeSee the way I have presented the meaning of the Biblical process of
establishing Jesus or Justice in the world
is comparing it to the 5 stages of grief, and recovery.

Individually people may go through these stages in whatever timeframe or order their life follows.
People commonly point out the phases DO NOT follow the order neatly, but can skip or overlap.

That is why I am not going to argue over whatever ways or steps or order
people experience spiritually in life.

What I CAN SAY is that IN GENERAL
(as in A above) humanity collectively goes through a process
of progressing from stage to stage. from the OT phase to the NT.

From Retributive Justice to Restorative Justice.
From judging/punishing/rejecting to
forgiving/correcting/restoring.

@WeSee how I WISH it was the same for everyone,
that we could all read the same words in the Bible and follow along without conflict.

But that's not what I have found in real life.
I found friends who didn't see Jesus/Holy Spirit the same way
but used the Holy Spirit where I attribute to Jesus
and attribute to Jesus what I call something else!

It isn't perfect, and people even believers will not see or organize the steps
in the exact way as each other. But we can still agree on the GENERAL PROCESS
of believing in Christ Jesus, resolving what we can, and following God's guidance
while we "figure out the rest."

To answer your question, it is BOTH what you say it is
and there are other cases where people experience the
steps or stages in a different order than what you or I might think.

IN GENERAL, as long as we forgive these conflicts and seek resolution, we will get there.

With you and me, between us, I see more of an issue with these two points:
From Retributive Justice to Restorative Justice.
From judging/punishing/rejecting to
forgiving/correcting/restoring.

I tend to favor the Restorative Justice approach,
while I am guessing your role is of the Judicial type where you
seek to correct things by the letter.

I do not think I disagree with you on the content,
because both the DIVINE/COLLECTIVE level of righteousness is already established
at the same time the relative steps are still required for people to go through.

I think where you and I are probably not quite aligned yet
is in the APPROACH. I do not generally cite the laws to try to
prove someone wrong to reject, but I seek to correct.

However, if you are more literal than I am, I might offend you by appearing
not to care about contradictions or inconsistencies.

Where I am with sharing with people is still trying to establish
even the GENERAL acceptance that the message in the Bible is about
human development, spiritually or socially, toward universal peace and justice.
My goal of even getting THAT MUCH past rejectors, atheists and attackers of Christian faith
has me working overtime resolving issues over just THAT basic message.

You seem to be at a more advanced level where your focus would
be among fellow believers who already have the basics down.

So I support you in addressing that audience to come to a consensus among believers.
The consensus on "not rejecting or condemning Christianity on its face"
is the more GENERAL goal I am seeking to establish between groups.

So that is why I am not arguing with you on something I trust you can teach to that audience.
I hope you understand it's not that I don't care about getting this 100% correct, because
I trust we will get there, with everyone on board.

My concern and focus right now is to get people into this conversation at
all who don't think the message in the Bible applies to them.

@WeSee let me finish getting a few more on board, to get the
conversation more inclusive. Then we can take on more details afterwards!

Thank you and I look forward to following up with you
on this or other issues I feel are more pressing to resolve first!

Dear @WeSee
And this is where we learn the real meaning of none being righteous save Christ Jesus.
And why Jesus prepared us to forgive seventy times seven, over and over.

What I also found is unfortunately many people, both skeptics AND Christian Believers,
do not know the difference it makes to go through deliverance and generational healing!
That is why lots of people, including Christians, do not "get" why reparative therapy
has actually helped many people to heal of abuses that cause unnatural homosexual or transgender
orientation that wasn't their natural self they were born with. Some people can and have changed
by spiritual healing. Not only in cases of sexual abuse that caused unnatural attractions (whether homosexual or heterosexual
attractions that weren't natural or right for those relationships), but also healing cancer, schizophrenia and
other mental disorders or addictions, and criminal ill disorders not curable by science.

Beside the spiritual forgiveness we can pray for and choose to heal our own mind body and spirit,
the COLLECTIVE prayer for GENERATIONAL healing to remove obstructions from unforgiven curses and conflicts
plays a MAJOR part in healing relations and community around us, even whole towns have been transformed by united prayers.

I find it hard to judge people if they have no understanding or knowledge of THIS
level of forgiveness and healing through prayers in Christ Jesus.

What I hope instead is to share this knowledge, including proof using medical research studies
as cited in HEALING by Francis MacNutt (edition 1999 or later) and advocated by Scott Peck
in Glimpses of the Devil where he, as a skeptic psychiatrist, changed his mind after observing
the healing effects of deliverance therapy on two schizophrenic patients too sick to comply
until after the demonic sickness was identified and removed first.

After we all have the same knowledge of spiritual healing, proven by medical science,
then I think it would be fair to judge the difference between people who have received
this healing and those who reject it or have not fully completed the process, so we can
learn the full impact that forgiveness and unforgiveness has on mind and body and relations with others.

www.christianhealingmin.org
www.healingisyours.com
www.ariseandshine.org

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

I'll try again. Perhaps it'll help to focus on one point and one point only.

You wrote the following:

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.

Jesus clearly speaks of the righteous who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to His coming. Their righteousness did not come to them "through Christ". Their righteousness existed PRIOR to the coming of Jesus.

Yet you claim that " righteousness...always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

How does your claim not fly in the face of what Jesus said?

Jesus was ALWAYS in heaven with God.
His manifestation through people on earth comes later through the
process of embodiment and fulfillment.

So yes, the righteousness is still from God through Christ.
On a heavenly level that is self-existent.

And then you and I and all the humans you see 'debating' online,
sharing and trying to reach a perfect agreement,
we are STILL in PROCESS of manifesting this "righteousness"
in our thoughts, words and actions. Still working on that.

You can see it, where it aligns with God's Word.
Other people do not see ANYTHING we are talking about,
so we are not all there yet.

But Jesus being the Word of God incarnate
is already there. And always was.

Let's see if I understand you correctly:
1) Jesus existed PRIOR to His coming to call sinners to repentance.
2) The righteous in no need of repentance that existed PRIOR to to His coming to call sinners to repentance were made righteous through Jesus.

Do I understand you correctly?

[WeSee]

Hi @WeSee
I think this is really about two totally different levels, one human one divine.

A. on a DIVINE level where God's Word is already written, and all
history over time is God's will already done, then the righteousness
in Jesus was, is, and always has been. so that part is timeless and eternal.

B. For the HUMAN experience, this is totally relative to which situation you are talking about.
I cannot answer for ALL human situations and experiences EVER because they
all happen at different times, rates, places; in the past, present or future.
I am not God and I do not make that call or have knowledge to make any such judgments.

What I can speak to is my own experience and understanding
where I have seen people go through this process of establishing justice and peace,
in any number of ways, stages or ORDER of the steps.

@WeSee the way I have presented the meaning of the Biblical process of
establishing Jesus or Justice in the world
is comparing it to the 5 stages of grief, and recovery.

Individually people may go through these stages in whatever timeframe or order their life follows.
People commonly point out the phases DO NOT follow the order neatly, but can skip or overlap.

That is why I am not going to argue over whatever ways or steps or order
people experience spiritually in life.

What I CAN SAY is that IN GENERAL
(as in A above) humanity collectively goes through a process
of progressing from stage to stage. from the OT phase to the NT.

From Retributive Justice to Restorative Justice.
From judging/punishing/rejecting to
forgiving/correcting/restoring.

@WeSee how I WISH it was the same for everyone,
that we could all read the same words in the Bible and follow along without conflict.

But that's not what I have found in real life.
I found friends who didn't see Jesus/Holy Spirit the same way
but used the Holy Spirit where I attribute to Jesus
and attribute to Jesus what I call something else!

It isn't perfect, and people even believers will not see or organize the steps
in the exact way as each other. But we can still agree on the GENERAL PROCESS
of believing in Christ Jesus, resolving what we can, and following God's guidance
while we "figure out the rest."

To answer your question, it is BOTH what you say it is
and there are other cases where people experience the
steps or stages in a different order than what you or I might think.

IN GENERAL, as long as we forgive these conflicts and seek resolution, we will get there.

With you and me, between us, I see more of an issue with these two points:
From Retributive Justice to Restorative Justice.
From judging/punishing/rejecting to
forgiving/correcting/restoring.

I tend to favor the Restorative Justice approach,
while I am guessing your role is of the Judicial type where you
seek to correct things by the letter.

I do not think I disagree with you on the content,
because both the DIVINE/COLLECTIVE level of righteousness is already established
at the same time the relative steps are still required for people to go through.

I think where you and I are probably not quite aligned yet
is in the APPROACH. I do not generally cite the laws to try to
prove someone wrong to reject, but I seek to correct.

However, if you are more literal than I am, I might offend you by appearing
not to care about contradictions or inconsistencies.

Where I am with sharing with people is still trying to establish
even the GENERAL acceptance that the message in the Bible is about
human development, spiritually or socially, toward universal peace and justice.
My goal of even getting THAT MUCH past rejectors, atheists and attackers of Christian faith
has me working overtime resolving issues over just THAT basic message.

You seem to be at a more advanced level where your focus would
be among fellow believers who already have the basics down.

So I support you in addressing that audience to come to a consensus among believers.
The consensus on "not rejecting or condemning Christianity on its face"
is the more GENERAL goal I am seeking to establish between groups.

So that is why I am not arguing with you on something I trust you can teach to that audience.
I hope you understand it's not that I don't care about getting this 100% correct, because
I trust we will get there, with everyone on board.

My concern and focus right now is to get people into this conversation at
all who don't think the message in the Bible applies to them.

@WeSee let me finish getting a few more on board, to get the
conversation more inclusive. Then we can take on more details afterwards!

Thank you and I look forward to following up with you
on this or other issues I feel are more pressing to resolve first!

The concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus" stems from Paul taking verses out of context from Psalm 53.

It is a concept that is alien to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it alien to His gospel, He says things such as the following:
Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 15
7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Clearly Jesus recognized that there were those who were righteous among the sinners.

Dear @WeSee
Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

So we are not going to be perfect in our love, but limited by our finite incarnations next to God and Jesus.

It is through Christ that God's love makes us perfect.
So that credit and glory goes to God through Christ and is
not about our doing or works, but God's purpose through us manifested in works that follow faith.

Our prayers are also righteous by receiving, following and uniting with God through Christ Jesus.

James 5:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


The part that is OURS is CHOOSING by free will to ask God's help with forgiveness and healing.
Then the prayers and works that follow come from God's will which we did not create
by our free will, but agree to receive and follow.

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

Yes and no. In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations.

Only God/Jesus is perfect in EVERY situation unconditionally and inclusively.
For the rest of us, we are limited in our knowledge and perceptions, relations and interactions.
So that is relative for the rest of us.

Do you agree, for example, that we cannot possible "love all our neighbors equally"
because we will never meet all the people who are neighbors in Christ.
Only God/Jesus can know, love and understand every soul in humanity collectively.

This is sophistry.

In the passage I cited from Matthew 9 Jesus clearly states that He "did not come to call the righteous".
Or as He also put it, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick". Jesus clearly views them as "righteous", as "healthy". Jesus only came to call the "sinners", the "sick". The "ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance" that Jesus refers to in Luke 15 would be among the "righteous", the "healthy" that He "did not come to call".

Why do you not believe Jesus?

Dear @WeSee
I believe we are not saying conflicting things.
Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

I don't think the Bible contradicts itself.
Whatever your explanation is for these verses,
I do not disagree.

But based on your previous post it seems like you do disagree.

For example in your previous post you wrote:
"In one situation 99 persons may be righteous and need no repentance.
But that doesn't mean in all situations."

As another example in your previous post you wrote:
"So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.
If there were situations in which they were not righteous, then in those situations they would have been in need of repentance and would not be considered righteous.

Yes people are righteous.
No, there is nobody PERFECT but Jesus/God incarnated in Jesus,
therefore nobody is "perfectly righteous" but Christ Jesus.

Something else for you to consider:
Matthew 5
20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven, one must be perfect in ones righteousness. As perfect in their righteousness as "your heavenly Father is perfect".

You write things that fly in the face of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His ministry.

Not at all contradictory @WeSee
There is no conflict between people being made perfect AS A WHOLE
by joining together as ONE in Christ Jesus,
versus by ourselves, without checking or correcting with our neighbors,
we can be prone to errors in bias and judgment.

My goodness, but this happens all the time!
If we take anything, including the Bible, one person may study part of it perfectly
and another study another. So when you put all the people and knowledge together,
then everything is whole and perfect.

But each person by themselves is not enough to cover the entire history in
as much depth as when you put everyone together.

A single flute player can play a part perfectly,
yet it takes all the instruments and sections to pay the ENTIRE symphony,
where it is WHOLE.

I'll try again. Perhaps it'll help to focus on one point and one point only.

You wrote the following:

So yes, there is righteousness but it always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own.

But as I pointed out in my previous post, Jesus says that He did not come to call the righteous - the righteous who are in no need of repentance. Logically these would be those who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to the coming of Jesus. They were righteous and in no need of repentance on their own.

Jesus clearly speaks of the righteous who were righteous and in no need of repentance PRIOR to His coming. Their righteousness did not come to them "through Christ". Their righteousness existed PRIOR to the coming of Jesus.

Yet you claim that " righteousness...always comes through us
through Christ because it is God's love and God's will, not our own."

How does your claim not fly in the face of what Jesus said?

Jesus was ALWAYS in heaven with God.
His manifestation through people on earth comes later through the
process of embodiment and fulfillment.

So yes, the righteousness is still from God through Christ.
On a heavenly level that is self-existent.

And then you and I and all the humans you see 'debating' online,
sharing and trying to reach a perfect agreement,
we are STILL in PROCESS of manifesting this "righteousness"
in our thoughts, words and actions. Still working on that.

You can see it, where it aligns with God's Word.
Other people do not see ANYTHING we are talking about,
so we are not all there yet.

But Jesus being the Word of God incarnate
is already there. And always was.

Let's see if I understand you correctly:
1) Jesus existed PRIOR to His coming to call sinners to repentance.
2) The righteous in no need of repentance that existed PRIOR to to His coming to call sinners to repentance were made righteous through Jesus.

Do I understand you correctly?

Since you neglected to answer my question directly, I'll assume that I do understand you correctly.

Let's look at what you presumably believe to be true:

1) Jesus existed PRIOR to His coming to call sinners to repentance.
2) The righteous in no need of repentance that existed PRIOR to His coming to call sinners to repentance were made righteous through Jesus.

It is the second that is particularly noteworthy.

Firstly, earlier you made a reference to the concept of "none being righteous save Christ Jesus". If flies in the face of what Jesus said.

Secondly, the righteous in no need of repentance existed PRIOR to Jesus' death. As such, there is no need for an "atoning sacrifice". There is no need for belief in this "atoning sacrifice" or the resurrection of Jesus. In fact, there is no need for knowledge of Jesus whatsoever. People can be righteous in no need of repentance without any of the above.

My goal of even getting THAT MUCH past rejectors, atheists and attackers of Christian faith
has me working overtime resolving issues over just THAT basic message.

You seem to be at a more advanced level where your focus would
be among fellow believers who already have the basics down.

Actually my focus is on truth. A foundation not based in truth, is a foundation of sand.

Many of the "rejectors, atheists and attackers of Christian faith" are such, because many Christian beliefs are not based in truth. Many Christian beliefs don't hold up under the light of truth. This is why they reject the Christian faith. They reject it because the foundation is of sand.

Consider the following:
By and large, the gospel Jesus preached during His ministry is based in truth.
Christianity does not have the gospel Jesus preached during His ministry as its foundation.
Instead it has the theology of Paul and followers of Paul as it's foundation which is not based in truth.

[emilynghiem]

Dear @WeSee
Let's divide this into two different issues so we can address both.

(A) The issue that you, in seeking TRUTH, do not address any "different levels"
that I point out as part of the process of seeking/resolving/establishing this one TRUTH

(B) the issue of none being righteous, or which being righteous through Christ, etc.
which is more complex in deeper philosophical context while the other is about the general process

Just so I can follow what you are saying, can we organize this into (A) and (B)?
Thank you!

If you see another point to add, please reply as (C) as to anything else you feel the other two wouldn't cover.
Do you have an additional concern that motivates this discussion? Please reply with (C) if it isn't in A or B.

[emilynghiem]

Dear @WeSee
Starting with

(A) The issue that you, in seeking TRUTH, do not address any "different levels"
that I point out as part of the process of seeking/resolving/establishing this one TRUTH

(A1)
What I mean is that when addressing a SECULAR GENTILE who is
starting with the notion there is nothing in the Bible or Christianity that
helps them, relates or applies to them, but is completely made up with no reference to reality

VS.

(A2)
Addressing a fellow Believer who already AGREES and commits to Scriptural law and authority,
and AGREES to work out issues or conflicts in how we read, interpret and apply the laws AS WRITTEN

Do you agree there is a DIFFERENT level and FORMAT of CONVERSATION
that takes place if you and I are addressing (A1) the SECULAR nonbeliever who does not believe in or use Scripture to express truth;
vs. (A2) the Believer committed to adhere and resolve conflicts by Scripture they both agree is the true standard?

Wouldn't the level of discussion be different by having a different starting point?

In BOTH cases, the point is to work toward establishing truth.

But in Case A1 there is not an agreement on the language to be used or the frame of reference.
The person could still be in a state of questioning the MOTIVATION for the discussion first!
In Cases like this, the RELATIONSHIP between the people needs to be established first
as motivated by truth and not by some ulterior or negative motivation Person A1 doesn't trust.
So the discussion can start with "what makes that person distrust" the process?

That's a different approach and level than A2.

With A2, there can still be distrust going on, where one person thinks the other is "teaching the wrong thing
for the wrong reasons." But in that case, the people already agree to commit to resolving conflicts
by establishing TRUTH USING SCRIPTURE and following instructions to seek witnesses to help, etc.

This process in A2 of establishing truth is on a HIGHER LEVEL
where the two people are discussing a more refined issue WITHIN the Christian context
that they BOTH ALREADY AGREE ON.

Do you see what I mean -- both are about establishing TRUTH.

But A1 is starting from a different point in the process.
A2 is later in the process when the foundation is already agreed on,
and now the two people are discussing an issue WITHIN that agreed context!

This is what I mean.

So given the differences in A1 and A2,
do you understand that if God calls me to work on people stuck on stage A1,
and bring them into relationships of trust first,
then later on when people like you and me are ALREADY COMMITTED to following
and obeying what Scripture teaches us,
THEN we need more people like YOU who
can take the verses and work out the meanings in greater detail!

I'm saying BOTH are necessary for establishing TRUTH.
You may be called to work INSIDE the given Scriptures and provide
the greater background and DIFFERENCES in meaning (which I don't
specialize in, but I refer to people like YOU to teach and work that out in DETAIL).

I specialize in talking with Secular Gentiles about the Universal
meaning and message in the Bible that can be very general
and it still takes LOTS OF WORK not to reject but to accept as POSITIVE.

Some of my friends I work with came from backgrounds of total rejection
after fighting family over abusing Christianity in very ugly ways.

They are not always in a position like you and I are of discussing the Scriptures yet
like we can here!

Does this help clarify what I mean?
How BOTH approaches are still part of the same process
of establishing TRUTH, but one stage comes before the
other for people who aren't at the same level you are.

So God would have you focus on people who ARE at that level
and NEED to hear from you how to correct flaws in order to establish truth.

While I work with people nowhere near that level of discussion,
and work on stopping the rejection and forgiving the past,
which is the FIRST STEP to opening the door in the first place!