Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

[TruthSeeker916]

Hello all. So ive read the chapter in Obadiah, the only chapter in the book. And to me it kind of sounds like it's describing America. But God calls it Esau (Edom). Here let me post this scripture.

Obadiah 1:1-6 (KJV) "The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: (gentiles) thou art greatly despised.

The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?

How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

Ok so reading that the first thing popped to mind was this sounds like America. He says this man is very proud, but the gentiles despise him (non israelite nations)

He says this man dwells in the clefts of the rock. I interpreted this to mean it is a highly protected nation. His habitation is high meaning he has great power in the earth and has much pride as a result saying no one can bring us down.

He then says he exalts his self as the eagle. That is THE AMERICAN LOGO. The Bald Eagle.

He then says he set his Nest among the Stars. Was it not America that established NASA space system and literally lives in outer space? With satalites and ect?

This is mind blowing. God says he will bring them down though. I mean at the end of the day no kingdom but Gods shall reign forever. Do we really think america wont fall? Do we really think christ will co rule the new kingdom on earth with the american government?

When you examin the wicked history of the nation? Its hard not to believe and see why God would have a judgment eye set on it. With history of stealing and slavery and alot of evil over centuries. All the clues point to america. He says if robbers steal wouldnt they leave at least some grapes ? Meaning they take what they need and get out. But american history reveals they take and take and take and do not stop. They take from other nations around the world and oppress them to their ways. And say you cant trade with us unless were in agreement which usually always benefits america more.

I dont know who else this could be. I believe God doesnt deal with coincidences neither. If it sounds like something it more likely is. Gods not the author of confusion. So what do you guys think about the book of Obadiah?

[brianbbs67]

Or it is past history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah

[JehovahsWitness]

No I don't think so.

As a rule we (Jehovahs Witnesses) have stopped looking for types and antitypes except where Gods word specifically indicates there is one. I understand seeing a possible link between Edom and the USA (with this kind of thing it's usually if you look for it you'll see it, which is why we decided to put the brakes on and let the bible itself provide the limits) and I dont see the bible leading us to that conclusion.

We still hold that the anglo-american dual world power is the 7th head of the sea beast in Revelation.



JW


RELATED POSTS

What do the feet in Nebuchadnezzars dream symbolize?
viewtopic.php?p=1021364#p1021364

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE LAST DAYS , MESSIANIC PROPHECY and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[PinSeeker]

No, it's not about America in particular -- or any other physical nation, for that matter.

Yes, the United States adopted the bald eagle as it's national bird years ago, but that has no bearing on anything biblical. America's founding fathers did a lot of what they did based on biblical things, yes, and this is one of them, but as Isaiah tells us, Gods ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. Incidentally, the fact that America's founding fathers did what they did does not make America a true "Christian nation," either. So, two questions for you:

1. Who do you think Edom really is?

2. And who do you think Israel really is?

With regard to that second question (which should, by inference/contrast, answer the first), I'll offer what Paul says in Romans 11:

"..a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (vv.25-26, emphasis added)

And it might help for me to mention the distinction God is making through Paul in this whole section of Romans -- chapters 9 through 11 -- between Jacob (Israel) and Esau (Edom).

So in Obadiah, what God is saying is that He opposes the proud and the arrogant -- unbelievers -- who are represented by the eagle (who has set its nest among the stars) of verse four. There is a lesser and a greater sense to this, the lesser being to what He was saying through Obadiah to the original hearers (the Isrealites; to them it was a 1:1 correlation) and the greater to all believers (God's true Israel, which is not just America).

Grace and peace to you.

[TruthSeeker916]

Or it is past history?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Obadiah

No because it was prophesied Edoms bloodline would be ruling the world in the last days.





2 Esdras 6:7-19 (kjv)


6: "Then did I consider these things, and they all were made through me alone, and through none other: by me also they shall be ended, and by none other. 7 Then answered I and said, What shall be the parting asunder of the times? or when shall be the end of the first, and the beginning of it that followeth?

8 And he said unto me, From Abraham unto Isaac, when Jacob and Esau (Edom) were born of him, Jacob's hand held first the heel of Esau.

9 For Esau is the END OF THE WORLD and Jacob (Israel) is the beginning of it that followeth.

10 The hand of man is betwixt the heel and the hand: other question, Esdras, ask thou not."

Ok So this prophecy states Esau will be the end of the world. So it hasnt come to pass yet.

Isaiah 63 reveals Christ is coming to destroy Edom further proof edom is still here. So This cant be past history, this is a future prophecy.

When the Israelites are ruling in the restored new jerusalem with christ (isaiah 63) Then the prophecy of Edoms fall will have came to pass.

[TruthSeeker916]

No, it's not about America in particular -- or any other physical nation, for that matter.

Yes, the United States adopted the bald eagle as it's national bird years ago, but that has no bearing on anything biblical. America's founding fathers did a lot of what they did based on biblical things, yes, and this is one of them, but as Isaiah tells us, Gods ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. Incidentally, the fact that America's founding fathers did what they did does not make America a true "Christian nation," either. So, two questions for you:

1. Who do you think Edom really is?

2. And who do you think Israel really is?

With regard to that second question (which should, by inference/contrast, answer the first), I'll offer what Paul says in Romans 11:

"..a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (vv.25-26, emphasis added)

And it might help for me to mention the distinction God is making through Paul in this whole section of Romans -- chapters 9 through 11 -- between Jacob (Israel) and Esau (Edom).

So in Obadiah, what God is saying is that He opposes the proud and the arrogant -- unbelievers -- who are represented by the eagle (who has set its nest among the stars) of verse four. There is a lesser and a greater sense to this, the lesser being to what He was saying through Obadiah to the original hearers (the Isrealites; to them it was a 1:1 correlation) and the greater to all believers (God's true Israel, which is not just America).

Grace and peace to you.

Respectfully (1 Corinthians 14:40) in regards to the whole spiritual israel doctrine? I have to disagree, and heres why.

First off.... Romans 9 is in correlation with Hosea 1.

And the rest of Romans 9 im afraid you may not have a good understanding of because you may have missed some important history from the past. That once examined? Really tests the spiritual israel theory. Leaving one having to reach almost Michael Jordan like in Space Jam to have it make any kind of sense.

You see the history of the physical bloodline of Israel in a nutshell goes like this....

They once were one nation united 12 tribes. But once God started cursing them for breaking the covenant and continuing in sin and dealing with idolatry with the heathen nations who served other gods.

God ended up cutting off a section of the israelites and keeping a 3rd.

There was a period where the nation of Israel became split up into 2 nations and 2 Kingdoms.

We had the Northern Kingdom of Israel whose aliases at that time were "The children of Israel, The Kingdom of Israel, Israel, The Northern Kingdom, And EPHRAIM and also Samaria (The Northerners Capital place of worship for God)

Ok and the Southern Kingdom of Israel their aliases were Judah, The Southern Kingdom, Or JEWS.

See the name Jew does not represent all 12 tribes of Israel. The name Jew only represents 3 tribes, The Southern Kingdom Of Israel who worshipped God in Jerusalem. They got the name Jew because its short like a nickname for Judah (JEW-DAH) And only Judah Benjamin and Levi held this name.

I hear some people erroniously say the jews denied christ as to say all israel denied christ which is a false statement. (It was only a small sect of the hierarchy in the southern kingdom that denied christ but they had the power to conspire to have him killed. The Saducees, Pharisees and The Scribes.

Envious that christ was converting so many jews to his teachings and taking the spotlight off of them. Many jews accepted christ and were killed for it as a result. So i rather cringe when someone says the jews denied christ so thats why God saved all other nations with christ. Im afraid thats false doctrine.

Christ said I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel and at the time he said that to the canaanite woman (who was actually hebrew by blood) It was only the Jews that God was dealing with. As he had cut off the entire northern kingdom israelites which consisted of 9 tribes, away from his covenant. Case in point they had no God for a time.

Enough of my words lets get the scriptures now to back up what im saying. Because my word means nothing.

Hosea 1:1-11 (KJV) "The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

(Notice already a seperation between Judah and Israel.)

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. ("Osee") And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD. "

(Referring to the Kingom of Israel)

"So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son."

"And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel."

(God preparing to destroy the Northern Kingdom Israelites)

"And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

"And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."

"But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will SAVE them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

(So God destroys Israel but Saves Judah. Further proof of the seperation and split. Translation: I will destroy the Northern Kingdom israelites for their idolatry (whoredom) and will save the jews (Kingdom of Judah) with Christ.)

"Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son."

"Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God."

(What Is someone called in the Bible that God does not deal with? He calls them Gentiles. He says the Kingdom of Israel are no more his people aka the kingdom of Israel are gentiles now)

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God".

(So here it is revealed that Gods plan was to still save them in the end, for a time they were cut off from the covenant between him and Israel from the time Moses and Israel after the Exodus were given the commandments to give to the 12 tribes of Israel before they embarked, lead by God, to establish their kingdom in their promised land and dominance over the nations.)

"Then shall the children of Judah (Jews/3 tribes) and the children of Israel (9 tribes) be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, (christ) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

Ok now when christ says to the canaanite woman? Im not sent but unto the lost of the race of Israel? It makes sense now. God sent christ only to israel. This woman was apart of the northern kingdom, this is why he said great is your faith and healed her issue. He was testing her humility and it would be a sign of the future once he established the jews first he would then leave and spiritually guide the jews who accepted him to go forth and teach the "gentiles" as in the REST OF the (physical) HOUSE OF ISRAEL. The northern kingdom that were cut off before the new covenant was set.

Once he died? God allowed those he cut off a chance at salvation to be grafted back into the family save they expect christ sacrafice because the new covenant was a fulfillment of the law of sacrafice between israel and God for their sins to be forgiven. The old animal sacrafice covenant wasnt working with israel. And they would brag one to another and boast stating my sacrafice was better for God then yours was, my animal was fine and yours was weak ect ect. This wasnt bringing the people of israel together it was rather exposing them. But in christ there is no more individual sacrafices. As they all have one sacrafice by coming in the name of Christ following his spirit and teachings and uniting together as one under God.

See for centuries the jews knew the gentiles of their blood people but would not deal with them as God stated not to. So it was a deep rivalry, though the northern was blood they were not spiritually, Gods. So they couldnt and wouldnt deal.

Which is why the woman in Samaria (a northern kingdom israelite woman) was so shocked christ
(a jew, the ones God still deals with) spoked to her. But that, like the canaanite (israelite) Woman were signs of the future to bring them all back together as the end of Hosea stated and also Ezekiel 37. Which is another reference to Romans 9.

You have to put it in perspective, they werent talking to no one but Israelites at that time. Christ only taught the jews, he didnt teach the romans or any other nation that wasnt blood of Israel. The canaanite woman and woma of samaria by the while and the story of the good samaritan where are all incidents pertaining israelites by blood.

Those cut off lost the name of Israel so they went by the names of the nations they were born in. They couldnt use Israel that is until christ died and the new covenant allowed them to come back.

Cornelious was an northern kingdom israelite in the roman army. He was the first non jew to accept christ and begin the unting era in christ name.

Now when we read romans 9 it makes perfect sense. Also all the nations paul wrote to? Were israelites that had not known of christ yet. Romans, corinthians, thessolonians, ect. Were all hebrews by blood he was sending these letters to. The actual real romans christ did not die for. He dies for his people because God promised israel would be his people for ever and they would rule from their land. Well they werent ruling anything and didnt even have control over their own land during the time of christ. So it was all for them.

Romans 9:1-8 (KJV) "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

(Paul here says it pains him that christ had to do this for us israelites by blood. But he says to us israelites by blood we own the the adoption, (the grafting in) the glory (the kingdom and rulership in the earth over all nations) the law (the commandments of God) the service of God (,Gods blessings) the promises (The land of israel) who are the fathers (israels ancestors) of whom concerning the flesh (the bloodline) christ came.)

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Thats easy to comprehend. Just because theyre born of Israel dont mean they have favor with God, they still have a job to do and a spirit to operate in if they dont operate in this spirit? They are nothing more to God then a gentile and until they operate in the spirit of christ? God does not regard them)

"That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

(Thats just saying the same thing just because theyrr of israel dont mean theyre good with God, they have to operate in the spirit of christ. This is not spiritualizing israel. Its simply saying israel has to operate in christ. Thats all.)

I do kind of find it strange people never quote the first 5 verses of Romans 9. Theyll jump right to jews and gentiles not knowing the history. Which is translation (kingdom of Judah and the cut off israelites of the northern kingdom of israel)

not Israelites and all people......

When you look up the definition of gentile it says non jewish people. As to say the term jew represents all 12 tribes. When Jew didnt really originate until after the split in israel lonnng after King David. So no gentile means non israelite.
Not non jew...

Then the middle part of Romans 9 goes into the fact that God chose Jacob (israel) he didnt choose Esau (Edom) bloodline. Even though Edom was first born. Later edom would reveal why he wasnt to be chosen by God through his actions selling his birhright and even vowing to kill his brother Israel. Edom spirit was not upright in him. Jacob even though stubborn with God? Still has a pure heart for God. Edom not so much.

Israel actually means "a prince (son) of power (God) with God, but he wrestles with God (stubborn) but with men (all nations) he has prevailed (will rule over)

The israelites are sons of God on earth. Aka the chosen ones . And the only nation God has declared his love for.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (KJV) "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, ABOVE ALL PEOPLE that are upon the face of the earth. (Period)

(Like it or not they , Israel, (whoever they are) their bloodline is royal on a Godly devine level and are the superior nation in the world, the true light of the world, the future government over the world and in time God will reveal that to all people)

"The LORD did not set his LOVE upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:"

"But because the LORD LOVED you, and because he would keep the OATH which he had sworn unto your fathers, (ancestors) hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

(Gods love is his oath, his word, his promise.
And he only promised Israel these things, and all people werent slaves to egypt and brought out from captivity by Gods personal hand from Egypt) if God were truly for all people then why didnt he spare Egypt? And why did he allow israel to run through all the nations that inhabited the lands he promised to Israelites? Seems like if he was for all? Then he wouldnt allow that to happen. But he sided with a particular bloodline and anyone who opposed that got ransacked.

Sure the genuine and not wicked who actually believe and love God and stand on the side of truth?
God allows to enjoy their life in peace. Which is a reflection of how the future kingdom of God will be ran. As isaiah 63 states All the nations who will not serve Israels government which is Gods under christ? They will suffer harsh judgments but giving those who do serve? Peace and prosperity.

I know where your mind may be headed at this point, shoot, probably the whole time youve been reading youve been asking, well what the heck is John 3:16 about then? Because what youre saying is contradicting that.

This may be a tuff pill to digest... but John 3:16 was not referring to all people.

People again dont read the old testament and jump to the new and expect to understand whats going on and reading it from a spiritualized doctrine point of view? Will throw one harshly to the left into misunderstanding.

John 3:16 in its entire context is referring to the house of Israel. As christ is having a convo with Nicodemus a JEW of the hierarchy (a scribe saducee or pharisee) which still by blood is one of his people.

So its a family affair. And Nicodemous is curious genuinely about christ teachings. But had to sneak to go see him because the rest of his sect were hating on christ at this time.

So they speak and christ tells him a story of their past ancestrial history where israel in the wilderness long story short (numbers 21:4-9) Israel were punished by poisonous snakes for complaining to God in the wilderness after hed just delivered them from Egypt they had nerve to complain.

So many got bit some israelites died as a result and others very sick. He made moses build a bronze snake put it on a pole and those of israel who looked at it were healed.

Christ said same way I will be lifted up. For God so loved the WORLD he gave his only begotten son (a perfect sinless israelite chosen by him) as a sacrafice that whoso ever of (that world) believes in him will not die in sin by have salvation.

So the word world is what gets people hung up. On the surface it does appear to be speaking about all people. But careful study and actual knowledge of the old testament contradicts that theory.

The whole world wasnt in the wilderness after egypt and getting bit by snakes. Israel was, the whole world didnt get cut off by God for idoltatry, israel did. The whole world didnt need a savior, Israel did. Also God never professed his love for the whole world, he professed it to the bloodline of Israel.

Theres 2 other cases in the bible where the israelites are referred to as a World. As the definition of world doesnt just mean, all people thar live in earth. It also means different sections, or a people that practice a certain thing together.
.
We have many worlds, the entertainment world, sports world, music world, science world, disney world, the sea world, the jungle world, ect ect.

Heres biblical proof.

John 18:19-21 (KJV) "The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the WORLD; I ever (always) taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the JEWS always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said."

(Jesus only taught Jews before he died. As he said im not sent but unto the lost of israel, Only way an outsider knew of it was told to them hersay by the scribes and saducees) but christ himself only dealt with Jews. So when he says i spake openly to the world in the synagogue? Hes referring to speaking to israelites by blood. Thats the WORLD he spoke openly to.)

Further proof.

Isaiah 45:15-17 (KJV) "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of ISRAEL, the Saviour.

They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, (confused) all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

But ISRAEL shall be SAVED in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye (ISRAEL) shall not be ashamed nor confounded WORLD without end."

(So God says Israel shall be saved with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed because you israel are a WORLD (nation) without an end because of me.)

So now lets read john 3:16 in its true context.

John 3:14-18 (KJV) "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"

"That whosoever (of Israel) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

"For God so loved the world, (ISRAEL) that he gave his only begotten Son, (A sinless Israelite) that whosoever (of Israel) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (Power in the future kingdom of God on Earth)

"For God sent not his Son into the world (ISRAEL) to condemn (judge) the world; (ISRAEL) but that the world (ISRAEL) through him might be saved."

"He (OF ISRAEL) that believeth on him is not condemned: but he (OF ISRAEL) that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS people (ISRAEL) from their sins."

And it can not be spiritual based on all the evidence presented, And Paul in Romans 9 stating its concerning Israel in the FLESH.

All people were not promised the land of israel, only israel were promised that. All people werent set above all people lol (duertonomy 7:6) Israel was set above all people.

All peoples nations names wont be on the gates of israel from north south east and west. Israels tribes will be, 3 on each side of the city guarded by angels (for a reason) to keep those coming and going in and out the city in check and not allow them to be over thrown ever again. As it is written.

Isaiah 60:10-12 (KJV) "And the sons of strangers (real gentiles) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (israel)

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."


Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (all people outside of Israel) which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (Christ) the LORD of hosts, (the angels) and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

"And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.". (that means starvation, struggle and even death in the new kingdom of God)

"And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite (judge) the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations (all people outside of Israelites) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

So in conclusion this should completely dispell the spiritual israel doctrine. Only thing spiritual about israel is those who accept christ vs the israelites who dont.

Now people can still believe God and love God and follow God. Its encouraged, and what will be in the future all people will serve God. That is a fact and im never going to tell anyone not to follow God. I belive God blesses all who does right as history has proven God has blessed those of the other nations like the King over Daniel at the time. Who actually liked Daniel and believed His God was true. Or the woman of Moab who was actually King Davids grandmother.

Or the people who actually helped israel and were spared during the time israel was coming up.

Those who accept truth will be fine but those who oppose it? Not so much.

But hopefully I may have taught you something valuable to know and it can aid you in your spiritual growth. As knowing the truth does nothing but help you like medicine even though it taste nasty going down at first (hard to accept)

Im also aware this theory really puts holes in the heaven and hell theories too of the afterlife.

Me personally learning this? Has brought me to the conclusion that there is no so called after life the way we have been believing, the way we were taught.

As heaven has 3 stages, where God dwells, outer space and also represents metaphorically a position of power on earth.

Christ says no one has ascendend to heaven but him. And when he rose from the dead all those who were good rose with him and walked the earth again whole and went to see their loved ones..

In the old test. Sheol is the word used which means the grave. In the new test. Its translated to Hell. Hell means simply the grave, death, the abscence of life, or a metaphorical state of struggle, poverty, and a low position in society.

When we die we go to a deep sleep, righteous or wicked and the dead in christ will rise to walk the earth again and forever. The wicked will be raised for the 2nd death. Lake of Fire. That could vert well be a metaphorical scripture. As much of revelations is very metaphorical using words to represent different things. The after life is out of my realm of understanding at this point. I do know that God said he only gave his law to Israel so he will judge israel for their sins for breaking it. So if hell is an eternal place for a people? Then why does God say he only judges Israel? Which leads me to believe the lake if fire thing is a deep complex metaphor.

Amos 3:1-2 (KJV) "Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

In conclusion the israelites are different and seperate from the rest of the families (bloodlines) in the earth. This is a stone cold fact. From Gods mouth.

[PinSeeker]

In conclusion the israelites are different and seperate from the rest of the families (bloodlines) in the earth. This is a stone cold fact. From Gods mouth.

Your post is worth responding to, of course, but I'm going to skip over most of it because I'm... Well, at the risk of sounding over-confident or boastful, I'm good on my Old Testament history. I applaud your familiarity with it, but your understanding of its significance is... Well, no offense intended, but for brevity's sake I'll just say that it's flawed.

It all boils down to what you way here. What you say here is not a "stone cold fact," because of the misunderstanding of who God's Israel is. God's Israel does not consist only of Israelites -- ethnic Jews. This is pretty much the chief failing of all dispensational understanding of Scripture. God has one people -- and one plan for the salvation of that people -- Israel, which is made up of Gentiles in addition to ethnic Jews. These together are believers in Christ Jesus and are thus true Jews, as Paul says in Romans 2:

• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." (vv.9-11) ...For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." (vv.28-29)

And Paul says the same thing throughout his letters, particularly in Galatians 3:

• "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (vv.23-29)

And this is what the writer of Hebrews is saying also, throughout his entire treatise. For brevity's sake, boiling it down to this particular subject:

• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." (1:1-2)...

• "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
  after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (8:8-11)...

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (12:1-2)

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we should clearly see that God's Israel is one people, those in Christ Jesus -- consisting of both Jewish (ethnic Jew) and Gentile (everyone else) believers. This should be abundantly clear for many reasons but certainly because of the use of the plural pronouns throughout -- 'us,' 'our,' 'we,' etc. -- in reference to Israel. God's Israel consists of all believers through the course of time, before Jesus life, death, and resurrection and after. The Bible is all about God's one plan of redemption and its accomplishment in His one people, Israel, again, consisting of believers -- regardless of ethnicity -- who together make up the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you.

[TruthSeeker916]

In conclusion the israelites are different and seperate from the rest of the families (bloodlines) in the earth. This is a stone cold fact. From Gods mouth.

Your post is worth responding to, of course, but I'm going to skip over most of it because I'm... Well, at the risk of sounding over-confident or boastful, I'm good on my Old Testament history. I applaud your familiarity with it, but your understanding of its significance is... Well, no offense intended, but for brevity's sake I'll just say that it's flawed.

It all boils down to what you way here. What you say here is not a "stone cold fact," because of the misunderstanding of who God's Israel is. God's Israel does not consist only of Israelites -- ethnic Jews. This is pretty much the chief failing of all dispensational understanding of Scripture. God has one people -- and one plan for the salvation of that people -- Israel, which is made up of Gentiles in addition to ethnic Jews. These together are believers in Christ Jesus and are thus true Jews, as Paul says in Romans 2:

• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." (vv.9-11) ...For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." (vv.28-29)

And Paul says the same thing throughout his letters, particularly in Galatians 3:

• "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (vv.23-29)

And this is what the writer of Hebrews is saying also, throughout his entire treatise. For brevity's sake, boiling it down to this particular subject:

• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." (1:1-2)...

• "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
  after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (8:8-11)...

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (12:1-2)

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we should clearly see that God's Israel is one people, those in Christ Jesus -- consisting of both Jewish (ethnic Jew) and Gentile (everyone else) believers. This should be abundantly clear for many reasons but certainly because of the use of the plural pronouns throughout -- 'us,' 'our,' 'we,' etc. -- in reference to Israel. God's Israel consists of all believers through the course of time, before Jesus life, death, and resurrection and after. The Bible is all about God's one plan of redemption and its accomplishment in His one people, Israel, again, consisting of believers -- regardless of ethnicity -- who together make up the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you.

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all. With all due respect. But no. Israel was a nation a bloodline a family. That did not consist of all people. That is false doctrine sir. All people werent delivered from egypt in capitivity. All people didnt fight to obtain the land of Israel. God killed the nations for standing in israels way. Canaanites, philistines, egyptians ect. The israelites are a bloodline from Jacob the son of Abraham.

God chose them to rule the world in righteousness should they abide in the covenant.

This is how i know you didnt read what i posted. Because you say jews and gentiles to mean all israel (jews) and gentiles (the rest of the nations)

But this is FALSE as the term JEW DOES NOT.....I REPEAT.....DOES NOT..... REPRESENT ALL 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL. JEWS ONLY REPRESENT JUST 3 TRIBES.....THATS IT.

You missed the history man. Dont be stubborn. The history states the nation of Israel were seperated into 2 sections divided. Into 2 nations and 2 seperate kingdoms at a period just before babylon.

Hosea 1 I posted the scriptures and you must not have read it in full and took your time. God clearly stated theres a Judah and Theres a Israel.

Judah represented 3 tribes the Kingdom of Judah which inhabited Southern Israel and Jerusalem.

Israel represented the other 9 tribes of Israel under the name of EPHRAIM (JOSEPH)

For CENTURIES JUDAH AND ISRAEL FOUGHT AGAINST EACHOTHER AND WARRED AND THE NORTHERN KINGDOMS 9 TRIBES FELL INTO ALOT OF WICKEDNESS AND IDOLATRY WITH THE HEATHEN NATIONS.

JUDAH DIDNT FALL IN THIS MANNER. JUDAH (WHICH IS JUDAH BENJAMIN AND LEVI) IN HOSEA 2 GOD SAID HE WOULD SAVE, BUT ISRAEL HE WOULD CUT OFF AND DECLARE THAT SECTION NO MORE HIS PEOPLE.

Youre confused because you believe the term Jew represents all Israel. And thats where you err. Once you learn the seperation history you will know that only 3 tribes of Israel were called Jews. It was simply a NICKNAME FOR THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH (JEW-DUHH)

The rest of Israel were spiritually cut off from God and the covenant between God and Israel. So for a period before Christ? Those of the northern kingdom had NO GOD!! which means to God and the Jews he elected to Spare? The rest of Israel were considered GENTILES to God and The Kingdom of Judah.

Thats why it says for you are not my people and i am not your God.

When you get to the new testament? The gentiles are in FACT referring to the israelites of the northern kingdom of Israel. And Romans 9 is a direct reference to Hosea 1.

So your theory of jews representing all israel and gentiles representing all people outside of the bloodline of israel? Is obviously wrong once you learn of the seperation period in Israel and you learn that the term Jew was only held by just 3 tribes. Not all israel. The rest of Israel were gentiles though they were born of Israel in the flesh. Spiritually they had been cut off and God was not listening to them nor hearing their prayers. They had no God aka GENTILES.

All of that which you posted was in vain because its coming from the perspective of a flawed belief that the name jew represents all 12 tribes.
This same theory causes many to erroneously believe that all israel rejected christ thats why christ accepted the rest of the nations.

This is false. As number 1 The only jews that really rejected Christ where the hierarchy describe the Sadducees and Pharisees who were jealous of Christ's teachings because Christ was taking away power from them. Only a small sect rejected Christ at that time but that small sect had the power to have him persecuted by Roman government. However many Jews love accepted and follow Christ stood by him and died for believing in him executed for believing in him even after he died and went on is disciples and apostles were all Jews.

All the people that he said the 500 with the bread? We're all Jews that accepted Christ. So when someone says Israel rejected Christ meaning as in Jews rejected Christ I honestly laugh at that because they have no idea how way off they are there.

If you would have touched on the separation between Israel ? I would have been more inclined to listen to you but you did not you didn't even touch that and you went straight to Jews representing all Israel and the gentiles representing all Nations outside of Israel. With all due respect you are wrong.

The truth is the gentiles that the Jews taught the New covenant 2 where in fact the rest of the nation of Israel the northern kingdom which consisted of nine tribes who were cut off by God for their idolatry with the other nations and God declaring them no more his people which means they were gentiles. which means they lost their name of Israel and had to use the names of the other nations where they dwelled in. but God plan his mission was to unite the nation of Israel together again as one nation under God under Christ you read about this in Ezekiel 37.

so in conclusion Christ he even said it out of his own mouth I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. And at that time there definitely was no such thing as a spiritual Israel. So he obviously was addressing his people the Israelites in the flesh the only ones whom God established a covenant with in the world.

Deuteronomy 7: 6 God states that the Israelites are a special people unto him he chose them to be a special people to himself above all Nation on the face of the Earth that means all families all bloodlines all races. And the Israelites didn't consist of no one but Israelites period.

If Israel consisted of all people then how come God did not spare the Canaanite how come God hated the Philistines how come Egyptians were not apart of Israel? it's because Israel wasn't own Nation it's on family it's on bloodline period.

In the book of Amos chapter 2 God says the Israelites only has he known of all the families all the bloodlines in the earth therefore he will punish the Israelites for their sins. Which is why the Israelites suffer and suffer governmentally and still suffer unto this day. Neutralizer at the bottom of society all the other nations have more power than them and are up above them. We are indeed in the time of the gentiles. If Israel had their power number one Christ would be here because that's the only time Israel will have their power is when Christ returns that's the only time when Israel will be in their land is when Christ returns also there would be no war because Christ would be here and the Israelites would be ruling over all nations in righteousness there will be a one world order a one World government we do not have that at the moment so the Israelites are not where they're supposed to be.

Grace be unto you. And if you reply please respond to the separation of Israel if you cannot that you must concede defeat on this subject.

[TruthSeeker916]

In conclusion the israelites are different and seperate from the rest of the families (bloodlines) in the earth. This is a stone cold fact. From Gods mouth.

Your post is worth responding to, of course, but I'm going to skip over most of it because I'm... Well, at the risk of sounding over-confident or boastful, I'm good on my Old Testament history. I applaud your familiarity with it, but your understanding of its significance is... Well, no offense intended, but for brevity's sake I'll just say that it's flawed.

It all boils down to what you way here. What you say here is not a "stone cold fact," because of the misunderstanding of who God's Israel is. God's Israel does not consist only of Israelites -- ethnic Jews. This is pretty much the chief failing of all dispensational understanding of Scripture. God has one people -- and one plan for the salvation of that people -- Israel, which is made up of Gentiles in addition to ethnic Jews. These together are believers in Christ Jesus and are thus true Jews, as Paul says in Romans 2:

• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." (vv.9-11) ...For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." (vv.28-29)

And Paul says the same thing throughout his letters, particularly in Galatians 3:

• "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (vv.23-29)

And this is what the writer of Hebrews is saying also, throughout his entire treatise. For brevity's sake, boiling it down to this particular subject:

• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." (1:1-2)...

• "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
  after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (8:8-11)...

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (12:1-2)

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we should clearly see that God's Israel is one people, those in Christ Jesus -- consisting of both Jewish (ethnic Jew) and Gentile (everyone else) believers. This should be abundantly clear for many reasons but certainly because of the use of the plural pronouns throughout -- 'us,' 'our,' 'we,' etc. -- in reference to Israel. God's Israel consists of all believers through the course of time, before Jesus life, death, and resurrection and after. The Bible is all about God's one plan of redemption and its accomplishment in His one people, Israel, again, consisting of believers -- regardless of ethnicity -- who together make up the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you.

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all. With all due respect. But no. Israel was a nation a bloodline a family. That did not consist of all people. That is false doctrine sir. All people werent delivered from egypt in capitivity. All people didnt fight to obtain the land of Israel. God killed the nations for standing in israels way. Canaanites, philistines, egyptians ect. The israelites are a bloodline from Jacob the son of Abraham.

God chose them to rule the world in righteousness should they abide in the covenant.

This is how i know you didnt read what i posted. Because you say jews and gentiles to mean all israel (jews) and gentiles (the rest of the nations)

But this is FALSE as the term JEW DOES NOT.....I REPEAT.....DOES NOT..... REPRESENT ALL 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL. JEWS ONLY REPRESENT JUST 3 TRIBES.....THATS IT.

You missed the history man. Dont be stubborn. The history states the nation of Israel were seperated into 2 sections divided. Into 2 nations and 2 seperate kingdoms at a period just before babylon.

Hosea 1 I posted the scriptures and you must not have read it in full and took your time. God clearly stated theres a Judah and Theres a Israel.

Judah represented 3 tribes the Kingdom of Judah which inhabited Southern Israel and Jerusalem.

Israel represented the other 9 tribes of Israel under the name of EPHRAIM (JOSEPH)

For CENTURIES JUDAH AND ISRAEL FOUGHT AGAINST EACHOTHER AND WARRED AND THE NORTHERN KINGDOMS 9 TRIBES FELL INTO ALOT OF WICKEDNESS AND IDOLATRY WITH THE HEATHEN NATIONS.

JUDAH DIDNT FALL IN THIS MANNER. JUDAH (WHICH IS JUDAH BENJAMIN AND LEVI) IN HOSEA 2 GOD SAID HE WOULD SAVE, BUT ISRAEL HE WOULD CUT OFF AND DECLARE THAT SECTION NO MORE HIS PEOPLE.

Youre confused because you believe the term Jew represents all Israel. And thats where you err. Once you learn the seperation history you will know that only 3 tribes of Israel were called Jews. It was simply a NICKNAME FOR THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH (JEW-DUHH)

The rest of Israel were spiritually cut off from God and the covenant between God and Israel. So for a period before Christ? Those of the northern kingdom had NO GOD!! which means to God and the Jews he elected to Spare? The rest of Israel were considered GENTILES to God and The Kingdom of Judah.

Thats why it says for you are not my people and i am not your God.

When you get to the new testament? The gentiles are in FACT referring to the israelites of the northern kingdom of Israel. And Romans 9 is a direct reference to Hosea 1.

So your theory of jews representing all israel and gentiles representing all people outside of the bloodline of israel? Is obviously wrong once you learn of the seperation period in Israel and you learn that the term Jew was only held by just 3 tribes. Not all israel. The rest of Israel were gentiles though they were born of Israel in the flesh. Spiritually they had been cut off and God was not listening to them nor hearing their prayers. They had no God aka GENTILES.

All of that which you posted was in vain because its coming from the perspective of a flawed belief that the name jew represents all 12 tribes.
This same theory causes many to erroneously believe that all israel rejected christ thats why christ accepted the rest of the nations.

This is false. As number 1 The only jews that really rejected Christ where the hierarchy describe the Sadducees and Pharisees who were jealous of Christ's teachings because Christ was taking away power from them. Only a small sect rejected Christ at that time but that small sect had the power to have him persecuted by Roman government. However many Jews love accepted and follow Christ stood by him and died for believing in him executed for believing in him even after he died and went on is disciples and apostles were all Jews.

All the people that he said the 500 with the bread? We're all Jews that accepted Christ. So when someone says Israel rejected Christ meaning as in Jews rejected Christ I honestly laugh at that because they have no idea how way off they are there.

If you would have touched on the separation between Israel ? I would have been more inclined to listen to you but you did not you didn't even touch that and you went straight to Jews representing all Israel and the gentiles representing all Nations outside of Israel. With all due respect you are wrong.

The truth is the gentiles that the Jews taught the New covenant 2 where in fact the rest of the nation of Israel the northern kingdom which consisted of nine tribes who were cut off by God for their idolatry with the other nations and God declaring them no more his people which means they were gentiles. which means they lost their name of Israel and had to use the names of the other nations where they dwelled in. but God plan his mission was to unite the nation of Israel together again as one nation under God under Christ you read about this in Ezekiel 37.

so in conclusion Christ he even said it out of his own mouth I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. And at that time there definitely was no such thing as a spiritual Israel. So he obviously was addressing his people the Israelites in the flesh the only ones whom God established a covenant with in the world.

Deuteronomy 7: 6 God states that the Israelites are a special people unto him he chose them to be a special people to himself above all Nation on the face of the Earth that means all families all bloodlines all races. And the Israelites didn't consist of no one but Israelites period.

If Israel consisted of all people then how come God did not spare the Canaanite how come God hated the Philistines how come Egyptians were not apart of Israel? it's because Israel wasn't own Nation it's on family it's on bloodline period.

In the book of Amos chapter 2 God says the Israelites only has he known of all the families all the bloodlines in the earth therefore he will punish the Israelites for their sins. Which is why the Israelites suffer and suffer governmentally and still suffer unto this day. Neutralizer at the bottom of society all the other nations have more power than them and are up above them. We are indeed in the time of the gentiles. If Israel had their power number one Christ would be here because that's the only time Israel will have their power is when Christ returns that's the only time when Israel will be in their land is when Christ returns also there would be no war because Christ would be here and the Israelites would be ruling over all nations in righteousness there will be a one world order a one World government we do not have that at the moment so the Israelites are not where they're supposed to be.

Grace be unto you. And if you reply please respond to the separation of Israel if you cannot that you must concede defeat on this subject.


As for the book of Hebrews it's simple God is just talking about what the New covenant is which the New covenant all it is is the fulfillment of the old animal sacrifice law for Israel sins. Price for field that as he is now the lone sacrifice for the Israelites for their sins whereas back then in the old covenant the Israelites would bring different levels of sacrifices to God and they would brag that their sacrifice is better than another sacrifice. In the New covenant no one can brag for they all have one sacrifice in Christ this it's supposed to cause then to become humble and unite with each other it also nailed to the cross the law of the death penalty for sins whereas back in the old covenant certain sins that Israel committed they were commanded to be put to death for not all sins could be forgiven of Israel back in the old covenant. in the New covenant though all sins can be forgiven of Israel and there is no more death penalty for sin as only God has the power to judge. That's all that the book of Hebrews is talking about. and when it says again Judah and Israel it's talkin about the southern Kingdom of Israel and the Northern Kingdom of Israel. again the northern kingdom was cut off from God and declared no more his people thus they had to Bear the title gentile but they were still Israelites in the flesh so when Christ came they were given a new opportunity to be grafted back into the family.

So when you read Romans 2 neither Jew nor Greek it's really saying neither Southern Kingdom Israelite or northern kingdom Israelite they just use the term Greek in that moment. because many of the Israelites of the northern kingdom had to go by the names of the other nations were they lived in because they lost the name of Israel they could not bear that name anymore. So you had Israelites in the flesh that were called Romans Israelites in the flesh that will call Greeks Israelites in the flesh there were called Colossians that thessolonians Corinthians etc etc. but these were not people of the other nations these were still Israelites in the flesh and they had to accept Christ to be grafted back in and considered God's people again. when it says not all Israel or Israel it means just because you're Israel does not mean you have favor with God an Israelite has to operate in the spirit follow the spirit of Christ except Christ and his sacrifice in order to have favor with God. This has nothing to do with the other nations outside of the bloodline of Israel absolutely nothing.

to deny that the Israelites is a specific bloodline is to pretty much deny the whole Bible.

[TruthSeeker916]

In conclusion the israelites are different and seperate from the rest of the families (bloodlines) in the earth. This is a stone cold fact. From Gods mouth.

Your post is worth responding to, of course, but I'm going to skip over most of it because I'm... Well, at the risk of sounding over-confident or boastful, I'm good on my Old Testament history. I applaud your familiarity with it, but your understanding of its significance is... Well, no offense intended, but for brevity's sake I'll just say that it's flawed.

It all boils down to what you way here. What you say here is not a "stone cold fact," because of the misunderstanding of who God's Israel is. God's Israel does not consist only of Israelites -- ethnic Jews. This is pretty much the chief failing of all dispensational understanding of Scripture. God has one people -- and one plan for the salvation of that people -- Israel, which is made up of Gentiles in addition to ethnic Jews. These together are believers in Christ Jesus and are thus true Jews, as Paul says in Romans 2:

• "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." (vv.9-11) ...For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." (vv.28-29)

And Paul says the same thing throughout his letters, particularly in Galatians 3:

• "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (vv.23-29)

And this is what the writer of Hebrews is saying also, throughout his entire treatise. For brevity's sake, boiling it down to this particular subject:

• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." (1:1-2)...

• "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
  after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (8:8-11)...

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (12:1-2)

Throughout the book of Hebrews, we should clearly see that God's Israel is one people, those in Christ Jesus -- consisting of both Jewish (ethnic Jew) and Gentile (everyone else) believers. This should be abundantly clear for many reasons but certainly because of the use of the plural pronouns throughout -- 'us,' 'our,' 'we,' etc. -- in reference to Israel. God's Israel consists of all believers through the course of time, before Jesus life, death, and resurrection and after. The Bible is all about God's one plan of redemption and its accomplishment in His one people, Israel, again, consisting of believers -- regardless of ethnicity -- who together make up the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you.

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all. With all due respect. But no. Israel was a nation a bloodline a family. That did not consist of all people. That is false doctrine sir. All people werent delivered from egypt in capitivity. All people didnt fight to obtain the land of Israel. God killed the nations for standing in israels way. Canaanites, philistines, egyptians ect. The israelites are a bloodline from Jacob the son of Abraham.

God chose them to rule the world in righteousness should they abide in the covenant.

This is how i know you didnt read what i posted. Because you say jews and gentiles to mean all israel (jews) and gentiles (the rest of the nations)

But this is FALSE as the term JEW DOES NOT.....I REPEAT.....DOES NOT..... REPRESENT ALL 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL. JEWS ONLY REPRESENT JUST 3 TRIBES.....THATS IT.

You missed the history man. Dont be stubborn. The history states the nation of Israel were seperated into 2 sections divided. Into 2 nations and 2 seperate kingdoms at a period just before babylon.

Hosea 1 I posted the scriptures and you must not have read it in full and took your time. God clearly stated theres a Judah and Theres a Israel.

Judah represented 3 tribes the Kingdom of Judah which inhabited Southern Israel and Jerusalem.

Israel represented the other 9 tribes of Israel under the name of EPHRAIM (JOSEPH)

For CENTURIES JUDAH AND ISRAEL FOUGHT AGAINST EACHOTHER AND WARRED AND THE NORTHERN KINGDOMS 9 TRIBES FELL INTO ALOT OF WICKEDNESS AND IDOLATRY WITH THE HEATHEN NATIONS.

JUDAH DIDNT FALL IN THIS MANNER. JUDAH (WHICH IS JUDAH BENJAMIN AND LEVI) IN HOSEA 2 GOD SAID HE WOULD SAVE, BUT ISRAEL HE WOULD CUT OFF AND DECLARE THAT SECTION NO MORE HIS PEOPLE.

Youre confused because you believe the term Jew represents all Israel. And thats where you err. Once you learn the seperation history you will know that only 3 tribes of Israel were called Jews. It was simply a NICKNAME FOR THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH (JEW-DUHH)

The rest of Israel were spiritually cut off from God and the covenant between God and Israel. So for a period before Christ? Those of the northern kingdom had NO GOD!! which means to God and the Jews he elected to Spare? The rest of Israel were considered GENTILES to God and The Kingdom of Judah.

Thats why it says for you are not my people and i am not your God.

When you get to the new testament? The gentiles are in FACT referring to the israelites of the northern kingdom of Israel. And Romans 9 is a direct reference to Hosea 1.

So your theory of jews representing all israel and gentiles representing all people outside of the bloodline of israel? Is obviously wrong once you learn of the seperation period in Israel and you learn that the term Jew was only held by just 3 tribes. Not all israel. The rest of Israel were gentiles though they were born of Israel in the flesh. Spiritually they had been cut off and God was not listening to them nor hearing their prayers. They had no God aka GENTILES.

All of that which you posted was in vain because its coming from the perspective of a flawed belief that the name jew represents all 12 tribes.
This same theory causes many to erroneously believe that all israel rejected christ thats why christ accepted the rest of the nations.

This is false. As number 1 The only jews that really rejected Christ where the hierarchy describe the Sadducees and Pharisees who were jealous of Christ's teachings because Christ was taking away power from them. Only a small sect rejected Christ at that time but that small sect had the power to have him persecuted by Roman government. However many Jews love accepted and follow Christ stood by him and died for believing in him executed for believing in him even after he died and went on is disciples and apostles were all Jews.

All the people that he said the 500 with the bread? We're all Jews that accepted Christ. So when someone says Israel rejected Christ meaning as in Jews rejected Christ I honestly laugh at that because they have no idea how way off they are there.

If you would have touched on the separation between Israel ? I would have been more inclined to listen to you but you did not you didn't even touch that and you went straight to Jews representing all Israel and the gentiles representing all Nations outside of Israel. With all due respect you are wrong.

The truth is the gentiles that the Jews taught the New covenant 2 where in fact the rest of the nation of Israel the northern kingdom which consisted of nine tribes who were cut off by God for their idolatry with the other nations and God declaring them no more his people which means they were gentiles. which means they lost their name of Israel and had to use the names of the other nations where they dwelled in. but God plan his mission was to unite the nation of Israel together again as one nation under God under Christ you read about this in Ezekiel 37.

so in conclusion Christ he even said it out of his own mouth I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. And at that time there definitely was no such thing as a spiritual Israel. So he obviously was addressing his people the Israelites in the flesh the only ones whom God established a covenant with in the world.

Deuteronomy 7: 6 God states that the Israelites are a special people unto him he chose them to be a special people to himself above all Nation on the face of the Earth that means all families all bloodlines all races. And the Israelites didn't consist of no one but Israelites period.

If Israel consisted of all people then how come God did not spare the Canaanite how come God hated the Philistines how come Egyptians were not apart of Israel? it's because Israel wasn't own Nation it's on family it's on bloodline period.

In the book of Amos chapter 2 God says the Israelites only has he known of all the families all the bloodlines in the earth therefore he will punish the Israelites for their sins. Which is why the Israelites suffer and suffer governmentally and still suffer unto this day. Neutralizer at the bottom of society all the other nations have more power than them and are up above them. We are indeed in the time of the gentiles. If Israel had their power number one Christ would be here because that's the only time Israel will have their power is when Christ returns that's the only time when Israel will be in their land is when Christ returns also there would be no war because Christ would be here and the Israelites would be ruling over all nations in righteousness there will be a one world order a one World government we do not have that at the moment so the Israelites are not where they're supposed to be.

Grace be unto you. And if you reply please respond to the separation of Israel if you cannot that you must concede defeat on this subject.


As for the book of Hebrews it's simple God is just talking about what the New covenant is which the New covenant all it is is the fulfillment of the old animal sacrifice law for Israel sins. Price for field that as he is now the lone sacrifice for the Israelites for their sins whereas back then in the old covenant the Israelites would bring different levels of sacrifices to God and they would brag that their sacrifice is better than another sacrifice. In the New covenant no one can brag for they all have one sacrifice in Christ this it's supposed to cause then to become humble and unite with each other it also nailed to the cross the law of the death penalty for sins whereas back in the old covenant certain sins that Israel committed they were commanded to be put to death for not all sins could be forgiven of Israel back in the old covenant. in the New covenant though all sins can be forgiven of Israel and there is no more death penalty for sin as only God has the power to judge. That's all that the book of Hebrews is talking about. and when it says again Judah and Israel it's talkin about the southern Kingdom of Israel and the Northern Kingdom of Israel. again the northern kingdom was cut off from God and declared no more his people thus they had to Bear the title gentile but they were still Israelites in the flesh so when Christ came they were given a new opportunity to be grafted back into the family.

So when you read Romans 2 neither Jew nor Greek it's really saying neither Southern Kingdom Israelite or northern kingdom Israelite they just use the term Greek in that moment. because many of the Israelites of the northern kingdom had to go by the names of the other nations were they lived in because they lost the name of Israel they could not bear that name anymore. So you had Israelites in the flesh that were called Romans Israelites in the flesh that will call Greeks Israelites in the flesh there were called Colossians that thessolonians Corinthians etc etc. but these were not people of the other nations these were still Israelites in the flesh and they had to accept Christ to be grafted back in and considered God's people again. when it says not all Israel or Israel it means just because you're Israel does not mean you have favor with God an Israelite has to operate in the spirit follow the spirit of Christ except Christ and his sacrifice in order to have favor with God. This has nothing to do with the other nations outside of the bloodline of Israel absolutely nothing.

to deny that the Israelites is a specific bloodline is to pretty much deny the whole Bible.

and don't worry I'm a warrior man I'm not sensitive I'm not going to block you or anything for speaking your mind this is America and we have freedom of speech. at the end of the day we have to get down to the bottom of the truth. It is important so yes it can get a little ugly sometimes.