Does the book of Obadiah describe America?

[TruthSeeker916]

Hello all. So ive read the chapter in Obadiah, the only chapter in the book. And to me it kind of sounds like it's describing America. But God calls it Esau (Edom). Here let me post this scripture.

Obadiah 1:1-6 (KJV) "The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: (gentiles) thou art greatly despised.

The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?

How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

Ok so reading that the first thing popped to mind was this sounds like America. He says this man is very proud, but the gentiles despise him (non israelite nations)

He says this man dwells in the clefts of the rock. I interpreted this to mean it is a highly protected nation. His habitation is high meaning he has great power in the earth and has much pride as a result saying no one can bring us down.

He then says he exalts his self as the eagle. That is THE AMERICAN LOGO. The Bald Eagle.

He then says he set his Nest among the Stars. Was it not America that established NASA space system and literally lives in outer space? With satalites and ect?

This is mind blowing. God says he will bring them down though. I mean at the end of the day no kingdom but Gods shall reign forever. Do we really think america wont fall? Do we really think christ will co rule the new kingdom on earth with the american government?

When you examin the wicked history of the nation? Its hard not to believe and see why God would have a judgment eye set on it. With history of stealing and slavery and alot of evil over centuries. All the clues point to america. He says if robbers steal wouldnt they leave at least some grapes ? Meaning they take what they need and get out. But american history reveals they take and take and take and do not stop. They take from other nations around the world and oppress them to their ways. And say you cant trade with us unless were in agreement which usually always benefits america more.

I dont know who else this could be. I believe God doesnt deal with coincidences neither. If it sounds like something it more likely is. Gods not the author of confusion. So what do you guys think about the book of Obadiah?

[PinSeeker]

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all.

You're right. Well, to be honest, I did read a little of it and very quickly recognized your dipensational understanding of Scripture, and thus decided to skip to your concluding remark. Very purposely; I pretty much knew what you said without reading it. And I'll skip the rest of this post, too, other than to say the following:

Yes, I'm well aware of the split of Israel into a northern and a southern kingdom. I'll address that in a moment.

I did not intimate that Israel was a not nation or a bloodline or a family. But the Israelites were not all Jewish, were they? No, there were foreigners among them who were brought in and became part of the nation/bloodline/family -- the covenant community of Israel. And this was a sign of what was to come. And now, since the coming of Christ, the Gospel has been opened to the Gentiles, who, as they come to repentance and believe in Christ, are grafted in as they come to Christ, as Paul says in Romans 11. As for the ethnic Jews, not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. Through Isaac are the true Offspring named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (Paul again in Romans 9).

Thank you for bringing up Deuteronomy 7, where God says of the Israelites, "...you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession..." Likewise, He said in Exodus 19, "...you shall be My treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." In speaking to the Gentiles, Peter refers to these very passages and verses and says to all his listeners (and us) the very same thing: "...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession..." The point being that the Israel of God is not along bloodlines, but the promise, the exact point Paul makes in Romans 9 through 11.

Regarding the split of Old Israel into two kingdoms, the books of Judges through 2 Kings detail the establishment of the nation of Israel and its division into two kingdoms because of failure to keep covenant. Most Israelites did not heed the prophetic warnings to walk humbly with the Lord, but instead counted on externals like physical ancestry or the Temple building for their preservation (Jeremiah 7). Taking God’s grace for granted finally led to the exile of the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 BC (2 Kings 17:19–20) and the southern kingdom of Judah in 586 BC (2 Kings 25). You know all this, right? Anyway, the reality of exile shows us that the godly remnant (God’s true people) is defined by faith, not physical ancestry. According to the flesh, all the people who were exiled were sons of Jacob. This heritage could not save them, only faith and repentance, the message preached by all of God’s prophets (Isaiah 1:27; Ezekiel 18:30). This should help you at least start to understand that your view of the history of Israel and its significance is in error.

With all this in mind, therefore, when you say, of Paul's statement in Romans 2 regarding "neither Jew nor Greek" is really saying neither Southern Kingdom Israelite or northern kingdom Israelite... they just use the term Greek in that moment because many of the Israelites of the northern kingdom had to go by the names of the other nations were they lived in because they lost the name of Israel they could not bear that name anymore..." that is patently false. He means the same thing in Romans 2 as he also means in Galatians 3:

• "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

And in Ephesians 2:

• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

It is rather as I said in my previous post. True Jews are the ones who are part of God's Israel, which was never about bloodlines but about the promise and faith.

The problem with the dispensational understanding of Scripture. It creates terrible, irreconcilable inconsistencies in the fabric of Scripture as a whole, which really was always -- and always will be -- seamless from beginning to end. The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the Word of our God stands forever.

Grace and peace to you.

[TruthSeeker916]

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all.

You're right. Well, to be honest, I did read a little of it and very quickly recognized your dipensational understanding of Scripture, and thus decided to skip to your concluding remark. Very purposely; I pretty much knew what you said without reading it. And I'll skip the rest of this post, too, other than to say the following:

Yes, I'm well aware of the split of Israel into a northern and a southern kingdom. I'll address that in a moment.

I did not intimate that Israel was a not nation or a bloodline or a family. But the Israelites were not all Jewish, were they? No, there were foreigners among them who were brought in and became part of the nation/bloodline/family -- the covenant community of Israel. And this was a sign of what was to come. And now, since the coming of Christ, the Gospel has been opened to the Gentiles, who, as they come to repentance and believe in Christ, are grafted in as they come to Christ, as Paul says in Romans 11. As for the ethnic Jews, not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. Through Isaac are the true Offspring named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (Paul again in Romans 9).

Thank you for bringing up Deuteronomy 7, where God says of the Israelites, "...you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession..." Likewise, He said in Exodus 19, "...you shall be My treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." In speaking to the Gentiles, Peter refers to these very passages and verses and says to all his listeners (and us) the very same thing: "...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession..." The point being that the Israel of God is not along bloodlines, but the promise, the exact point Paul makes in Romans 9 through 11.

Regarding the split of Old Israel into two kingdoms, the books of Judges through 2 Kings detail the establishment of the nation of Israel and its division into two kingdoms because of failure to keep covenant. Most Israelites did not heed the prophetic warnings to walk humbly with the Lord, but instead counted on externals like physical ancestry or the Temple building for their preservation (Jeremiah 7). Taking God’s grace for granted finally led to the exile of the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 BC (2 Kings 17:19–20) and the southern kingdom of Judah in 586 BC (2 Kings 25). You know all this, right? Anyway, the reality of exile shows us that the godly remnant (God’s true people) is defined by faith, not physical ancestry. According to the flesh, all the people who were exiled were sons of Jacob. This heritage could not save them, only faith and repentance, the message preached by all of God’s prophets (Isaiah 1:27; Ezekiel 18:30). This should help you at least start to understand that your view of the history of Israel and its significance is in error.

With all this in mind, therefore, when you say, of Paul's statement in Romans 2 regarding "neither Jew nor Greek" is really saying neither Southern Kingdom Israelite or northern kingdom Israelite... they just use the term Greek in that moment because many of the Israelites of the northern kingdom had to go by the names of the other nations were they lived in because they lost the name of Israel they could not bear that name anymore..." that is patently false. He means the same thing in Romans 2 as he also means in Galatians 3:

• "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

And in Ephesians 2:

• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

It is rather as I said in my previous post. True Jews are the ones who are part of God's Israel, which was never about bloodlines but about the promise and faith.

The problem with the dispensational understanding of Scripture. It creates terrible, irreconcilable inconsistencies in the fabric of Scripture as a whole, which really was always -- and always will be -- seamless from beginning to end. The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the Word of our God stands forever.

Grace and peace to you.

Ok, explain these then if my doctrine is false that Israel is a bloodline because to me? The understanding you have contradicts these as it would make no sense to be talking to all people.

Isaiah 14:1-4 (KJV) "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in THEIR own land: and the strangers (gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall POSSESS them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee (Israel) rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage (slavery) wherein thou wast made to serve,

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

(That babylon there is referring to a spiritual kingdom in the last days that resembles the babylon of old in terms of its power. This is a prophecy of the future kingdom of God after Christ returns. This has not happened yet. It goes on to speak of the fall of lucifer (Edom) bloodline from power. So Edom is the king of babylon. (Obadiah 1 is the precept for Isaiah 14) Lucifer is not Satan. As Satan was never cast out of heaven as the book of job proves this. Lucifer falling from heaven is translated as Edoms bloodline falling from their power in the world.)

But ok so by your theory you believe all people will possess the land of israel in the future kingdom? And all people will possess captives and rule over their oppressors in israel? If its not bloodline.

Also Explain this too....

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN (meaning a curse)

(I thought there was no more death or cursings in the kingdom of God? If its for all? Then why is there a cursing of no rain in Gods kingdom? For those who dont come to serve the feast of tabernacles an ISRAELITE TRADITION. No Rain means no food which means starvation and death, explain that.)

"And if the family (bloodline) of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the PUNISHMENT of Egypt, and the PUNISHMENT of ALL NATIONS (all bloodlines) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

PUNISHMENT! of all nations.... So whats your take on THAT? I thought in the Kingdom of God there was no more sorrow or punishments?

Isaiah 45:14-17 (KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in CHAINS they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, (ISRAEL) they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of ISRAEL, the Saviour.

They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, (confused) all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

But ISRAEL shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded WORLD without end."

(John 3:16. For God so loved ISRAEL (world) )

Im sorry but if you are not apart of Israel in the flesh? It has nothing to do with you. The land of israel wasnt promised to you by God. Rulership over the earth and all nations wasnt promised to none but the bloodline of Israel. You clearly are misunderstood with your interpretations and youre struggling to fit your doctrine in. You dont want to accept that christ did not die for you.)

Isaiah 40:15-17 (KJV) "Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. (He dont accept offerings from other nations)

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity."

That means the nations are here for Israels sake. The nations are a pawn in Gods plan. Theyre only here for Israel to rule over. God is Israels God Christ is Israels savior, the rest of the nations? Israel is essentially THEIR GODS. In the Kingdom Christ and the redeemed Israelites will rule over all nations. All nations will serve one God but have to respect and honor the government of Israel which the capital will be in New Jerusalem.

If Christ indeed died for all? Then there shouldnt be no punishment of all nations who dont obey in his kingdom.

Isaiah 60:8-18 (KJV) "Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (Israelites)

Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy (Israels) sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

And the sons of strangers (GENTILES) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

For the NATION (race) and kingdom that will not serve thee (ISRAEL) shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

(This is the Kingdom of God, how come noone ever quotes this in "church". You see my name is TruthSeeker, im not dealing with feelings and emotions im trying to know the truth whether it excludes me or not, and the bible is clearly making a distinction between the israelites and the rest of humanity. If you are not of Israel? You are below them. We must repesct this bloodline the ones of them who serve Christ that is. And we must honor the fact that the land is theres and God is theres before anyone else, if even ever he is. Humility and respect goes alonnng way.

Trying to graft oneself into their family? Screams desperation and disrespect.)

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

The sons (descendants) also of them that afflicted thee (ISRAELITES) shall come bending unto thee; (ISRAELITES) and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Whereas thou (ISRAEL) hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man (NO RACE) went through (RESPECTED) thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

Thou (ISRAEL) shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, (ALL RACES) and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob (ISRAEL) .

(Gods Israel........ Lmao) let me guess? This is talking about the church huh? Lol ok then how come the "church" dont ever talk about the nations having to bow to them and serve them or die?) Lol c mon man.

"For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise."

(THY LAND) all people werent promised the land of Israel.. only the descendants of Israel. Its called an INHERITANCE. When you pass something down? You keep it in the family. You dont let outsiders have the main power in your buisness. Outsiders can serve in your buisness and help keep it going? But the final say goes through the family FIRST. If you are to get anything in the kingdom you have to go through christ and Israel FIRST.)

So again the northern kingdom are the israelites that became gentiles cut off from the covenant. And were the ones God said ye are not my people but later said ye are the sons of the living God. (They were gentiles but the new covenant granted them the chance to be apart of the family covenant again and a chance to inherit whats to be inherited as ISRAELITES IN THE FLESH.

The only thing spiritual about Israel is that God dont accept them unless they come in the name of Christ..thats whats spiritual. Not all nations are israel now.

STOP IT.

[TruthSeeker916]

Ummmm..... I dont you read my post at all.

You're right. Well, to be honest, I did read a little of it and very quickly recognized your dipensational understanding of Scripture, and thus decided to skip to your concluding remark. Very purposely; I pretty much knew what you said without reading it. And I'll skip the rest of this post, too, other than to say the following:

Yes, I'm well aware of the split of Israel into a northern and a southern kingdom. I'll address that in a moment.

I did not intimate that Israel was a not nation or a bloodline or a family. But the Israelites were not all Jewish, were they? No, there were foreigners among them who were brought in and became part of the nation/bloodline/family -- the covenant community of Israel. And this was a sign of what was to come. And now, since the coming of Christ, the Gospel has been opened to the Gentiles, who, as they come to repentance and believe in Christ, are grafted in as they come to Christ, as Paul says in Romans 11. As for the ethnic Jews, not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring. Through Isaac are the true Offspring named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring (Paul again in Romans 9).

Thank you for bringing up Deuteronomy 7, where God says of the Israelites, "...you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession..." Likewise, He said in Exodus 19, "...you shall be My treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." In speaking to the Gentiles, Peter refers to these very passages and verses and says to all his listeners (and us) the very same thing: "...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession..." The point being that the Israel of God is not along bloodlines, but the promise, the exact point Paul makes in Romans 9 through 11.

Regarding the split of Old Israel into two kingdoms, the books of Judges through 2 Kings detail the establishment of the nation of Israel and its division into two kingdoms because of failure to keep covenant. Most Israelites did not heed the prophetic warnings to walk humbly with the Lord, but instead counted on externals like physical ancestry or the Temple building for their preservation (Jeremiah 7). Taking God’s grace for granted finally led to the exile of the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 BC (2 Kings 17:19–20) and the southern kingdom of Judah in 586 BC (2 Kings 25). You know all this, right? Anyway, the reality of exile shows us that the godly remnant (God’s true people) is defined by faith, not physical ancestry. According to the flesh, all the people who were exiled were sons of Jacob. This heritage could not save them, only faith and repentance, the message preached by all of God’s prophets (Isaiah 1:27; Ezekiel 18:30). This should help you at least start to understand that your view of the history of Israel and its significance is in error.

With all this in mind, therefore, when you say, of Paul's statement in Romans 2 regarding "neither Jew nor Greek" is really saying neither Southern Kingdom Israelite or northern kingdom Israelite... they just use the term Greek in that moment because many of the Israelites of the northern kingdom had to go by the names of the other nations were they lived in because they lost the name of Israel they could not bear that name anymore..." that is patently false. He means the same thing in Romans 2 as he also means in Galatians 3:

• "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

And in Ephesians 2:

• "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."

It is rather as I said in my previous post. True Jews are the ones who are part of God's Israel, which was never about bloodlines but about the promise and faith.

The problem with the dispensational understanding of Scripture. It creates terrible, irreconcilable inconsistencies in the fabric of Scripture as a whole, which really was always -- and always will be -- seamless from beginning to end. The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the Word of our God stands forever.

Grace and peace to you.

Ok, explain these then if my doctrine is false that Israel is a bloodline because to me? The understanding you have contradicts these as it would make no sense to be talking to all people.

Isaiah 14:1-4 (KJV) "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in THEIR own land: and the strangers (gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall POSSESS them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee (Israel) rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage (slavery) wherein thou wast made to serve,

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

(That babylon there is referring to a spiritual kingdom in the last days that resembles the babylon of old in terms of its power. This is a prophecy of the future kingdom of God after Christ returns. This has not happened yet. It goes on to speak of the fall of lucifer (Edom) bloodline from power. So Edom is the king of babylon. (Obadiah 1 is the precept for Isaiah 14) Lucifer is not Satan. As Satan was never cast out of heaven as the book of job proves this. Lucifer falling from heaven is translated as Edoms bloodline falling from their power in the world.)

But ok so by your theory you believe all people will possess the land of israel in the future kingdom? And all people will possess captives and rule over their oppressors in israel? If its not bloodline.

Also Explain this too....

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN (meaning a curse)

(I thought there was no more death or cursings in the kingdom of God? If its for all? Then why is there a cursing of no rain in Gods kingdom? For those who dont come to serve the feast of tabernacles an ISRAELITE TRADITION. No Rain means no food which means starvation and death, explain that.)

"And if the family (bloodline) of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the PUNISHMENT of Egypt, and the PUNISHMENT of ALL NATIONS (all bloodlines) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

PUNISHMENT! of all nations.... So whats your take on THAT? I thought in the Kingdom of God there was no more sorrow or punishments?

Isaiah 45:14-17 (KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in CHAINS they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, (ISRAEL) they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of ISRAEL, the Saviour.

They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, (confused) all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

But ISRAEL shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded WORLD without end."

(John 3:16. For God so loved ISRAEL (world) )

Im sorry but if you are not apart of Israel in the flesh? It has nothing to do with you. The land of israel wasnt promised to you by God. Rulership over the earth and all nations wasnt promised to none but the bloodline of Israel. You clearly are misunderstood with your interpretations and youre struggling to fit your doctrine in. You dont want to accept that christ did not die for you.)

Isaiah 40:15-17 (KJV) "Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. (He dont accept offerings from other nations)

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity."

That means the nations are here for Israels sake. The nations are a pawn in Gods plan. Theyre only here for Israel to rule over. God is Israels God Christ is Israels savior, the rest of the nations? Israel is essentially THEIR GODS. In the Kingdom Christ and the redeemed Israelites will rule over all nations. All nations will serve one God but have to respect and honor the government of Israel which the capital will be in New Jerusalem.

If Christ indeed died for all? Then there shouldnt be no punishment of all nations who dont obey in his kingdom.

Isaiah 60:8-18 (KJV) "Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? (Israelites)

Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy (Israels) sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

And the sons of strangers (GENTILES) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

For the NATION (race) and kingdom that will not serve thee (ISRAEL) shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

(This is the Kingdom of God, how come noone ever quotes this in "church". You see my name is TruthSeeker, im not dealing with feelings and emotions im trying to know the truth whether it excludes me or not, and the bible is clearly making a distinction between the israelites and the rest of humanity. If you are not of Israel? You are below them. We must repesct this bloodline the ones of them who serve Christ that is. And we must honor the fact that the land is theres and God is theres before anyone else, if even ever he is. Humility and respect goes alonnng way.

Trying to graft oneself into their family? Screams desperation and disrespect.)

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

The sons (descendants) also of them that afflicted thee (ISRAELITES) shall come bending unto thee; (ISRAELITES) and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Whereas thou (ISRAEL) hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man (NO RACE) went through (RESPECTED) thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

Thou (ISRAEL) shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, (ALL RACES) and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob (ISRAEL) .

(Gods Israel........ Lmao) let me guess? This is talking about the church huh? Lol ok then how come the "church" dont ever talk about the nations having to bow to them and serve them or die?) Lol c mon man.

"For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.

Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise."

(THY LAND) all people werent promised the land of Israel.. only the descendants of Israel. Its called an INHERITANCE. When you pass something down? You keep it in the family. You dont let outsiders have the main power in your buisness. Outsiders can serve in your buisness and help keep it going? But the final say goes through the family FIRST. If you are to get anything in the kingdom you have to go through christ and Israel FIRST.)

So again the northern kingdom are the israelites that became gentiles cut off from the covenant. And were the ones God said ye are not my people but later said ye are the sons of the living God. (They were gentiles but the new covenant granted them the chance to be apart of the family covenant again and a chance to inherit whats to be inherited as ISRAELITES IN THE FLESH.

The only thing spiritual about Israel is that God dont accept them unless they come in the name of Christ..thats whats spiritual. Not all nations are israel now.

STOP IT. And yes christ did say go into all nations and teach. Thats because israelites were using the names of all nations. They were scattered abroad and lost the name of Israel.

Again. The canaanite woman was a physical israelite, the woman at the well from samaria, was a samaritan of northern israel, an israelite woman under the curse of Hosea 2. Cornelious was an israelite roman centurian under the curse of hosea 2 but he loved God and the new covenant was preached unto him so he accepted and became spiritually grafted back in to the family. Once they accepted christ? They all became one again. No seperation and different names.

The reason the woman went by the canaanite name was because the land of Israel originally was called Canaan. Her section of Israel was cut off so she couldnt use the name Israel so she used the lands original name.

Im afraid your doctrine is the one that has the holes.

[PinSeeker]

But ok so by your theory you believe all people will possess the land of israel in the future kingdom? And all people will possess captives and rule over their oppressors in israel? If its not bloodline.

All the prophecies of the Old Testament have an immediate context and a future, ultimate context. Regarding the latter, Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

Also Explain this too....

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN (meaning a curse) (I thought there was no more death or cursings in the kingdom of God? If its for all? Then why is there a cursing of no rain in Gods kingdom? For those who dont come to serve the feast of tabernacles an ISRAELITE TRADITION. No Rain means no food which means starvation and death, explain that.)

Sure. I don't have any real objection to the term 'curse,' as you use it here, but it's really a judgment, as in the opposite of a blessing. Both still occur today. One day there will be a final Judgment, after which only blessing will remain, as there will be no more sin.

PUNISHMENT! of all nations.... So whats your take on THAT?

Right, the final Judgment will be just that.

I thought in the Kingdom of God there was no more sorrow or punishments?

That will be true in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sorrow and sighing will flee away, as we read in Isaiah 35. That may be my favorite passage in the entire bible...

Im sorry but if you are not apart of Israel in the flesh? It has nothing to do with you. The land of israel wasnt promised to you by God.

Oh, but it was. God promised it through Abraham to all of us, Jew and Gentile alike.

Rulership over the earth and all nations wasnt promised to none but the bloodline of Israel. You clearly are misunderstood with your interpretations and you're struggling to fit your doctrine in.

In your opinion. Yeah, I getcha loud and clear.

You dont want to accept that Christ did not die for you.

Right, and it's a good thing I don't have to accept such an untruth.

If Christ indeed died for all? Then there shouldnt be no punishment of all nations who dont obey in his kingdom.

Now here, I almost agree with you. Not everyone is of Israel, for sure. Not all will be saved. So, you're right, Christ did not die for all. His atonement was sufficient for all, for sure, but He died only for those who He came to save, those whom the Father has given Him.

You see my name is TruthSeeker, im not dealing with feelings and emotions im trying to know the truth whether it excludes me or not...

Very good! I hope you find it.

the bible is clearly making a distinction between the israelites and the rest of humanity.

Well sure, the bible makes a clear distinction between those who are of Israel and those who are not all the way through. No doubt about that.

If you are not of Israel? You are below them.

Actually, no. None of us are deserving of God's grace, and equally undeserving in His eyes... unless we have Jesus.

We must respect this bloodline the ones of them who serve Christ that is.

No one disrespects the bloodline, Truthseeker. No one. Well, racists, anti-Semites do, I guess, but that's irrelevant. The fact remains, thought, that those of that bloodline -- depending on the individual and whether they are in Christ or not -- may or may not be truly of God's Israel.

Trying to graft oneself into their family? Screams desperation and disrespect.

Nobody's "grafting himself in," TruthSeeker. That's not even possible.

Gods Israel........ Lmao) let me guess? This is talking about the church huh?

Well, all believers, which is Christ's true church, which includes both Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Lol ok then how come the "church" dont ever talk about the nations having to bow to them and serve them or die?

Um, because no mere man is the Head of Christ's church... Right? Well, right.

(THY LAND) all people werent promised the land of Israel. only the descendants of Israel. Its called an INHERITANCE.

Very true. But the true descendants of Israel are not all ethnic Jews, but people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. That number, as God told Abraham they would, like the stars of the heavens. Abraham was brought to the promised land in Genesis for sure. But this was just a shadow of the true Promised Land, which not just a tiny strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, but rather the whole earth.
Aaain, as Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 9Matthew 5:5)

So again the northern kingdom are the israelites that became gentiles cut off from the covenant.

Totally false. No Israelites ever "became" Gentiles. Though there were, and remained, Israelites, they were no longer of God's Israel -- at least a number of them -- because they never really were of Israel. This is much in the same vain as what John says of those who are not "of us," those who departed from the faith. Of those, John says:

• "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. the went out from us, because they were not of us..." (1 John 2:19)

Eve was the mother of ALL the living, and not all are saved. And we see the first example in Cain, who was not of us, either, unlike Abel.

The only thing spiritual about Israel is that God dont accept them unless they come in the name of Christ.

But that, as I have said, Truthseeker, IS Israel. These are the true offspring of Abraham. Through Isaac, the child of the promise. True Jews, again, in exactly the sense that Paul relates especially in Romans 2 and 11 and Galatians 3 (among other places). God's Israel.

thats whats spiritual. Not all nations are israel now.

Yeah... nobody ever intimated such. But Israel does now and will include people of every tongue, tribe and nation. It's just not complete yet. Not everyone who is or will be of Israel has been brought in yet. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11. The fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in (grafted in; v.17), and then the partial hardening that has come upon Israel will be removed (many ethnic Jews will be grafted in again; v.23), and this is how ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved (v. 26). Paul drives the point home by quoting from Isaiah 59 (vv. 20-21).

yes christ did say go into all nations and teach. Thats because israelites were using the names of all nations. They were scattered abroad and lost the name of Israel.

So you're saying that Christ said to go into all the nations and teach and make disciples... of only fellow Jews? If so, that puts you way, way outside orthodox Christian teaching (and the teaching of Christ Himself, of course). Perish the thought.

I'em afraid your doctrine is the one that has the holes.

Like I said, I understand your opinion.

Grace and peace to you. And hey, grace... Why don't you try having some? You know, for a change...

[TruthSeeker916]

But ok so by your theory you believe all people will possess the land of israel in the future kingdom? And all people will possess captives and rule over their oppressors in israel? If its not bloodline.

All the prophecies of the Old Testament have an immediate context and a future, ultimate context. Regarding the latter, Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

Also Explain this too....

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN (meaning a curse) (I thought there was no more death or cursings in the kingdom of God? If its for all? Then why is there a cursing of no rain in Gods kingdom? For those who dont come to serve the feast of tabernacles an ISRAELITE TRADITION. No Rain means no food which means starvation and death, explain that.)

Sure. I don't have any real objection to the term 'curse,' as you use it here, but it's really a judgment, as in the opposite of a blessing. Both still occur today. One day there will be a final Judgment, after which only blessing will remain, as there will be no more sin.

PUNISHMENT! of all nations.... So whats your take on THAT?

Right, the final Judgment will be just that.

(Punishment of all nations WHICH COME NOT UP TO KEEP FEAST OF TABERNACLES! THIS ISSSS THE KINGDOM OF GOD) AFTER ARMAGEDDON. Judgement day is to rid earth of all the wicked kingdoms and governments and turn all nations into minorities to be brought over and used to help build up the kingdom of God which is the Kingdom of Israel.. this is the days AFTER the final judgment. There will be a remnant of all nations left to be used to build up Israel and new jerusalem because the Israelites will not have to work anymore. Some more proof that israel is not all people who love christ. All people will be in the kingdom YES if were lucky to survive armegeddon and God finds use for us in the building of the new world. But only Israel will INHERIT the glory and rulership.

I thought in the Kingdom of God there was no more sorrow or punishments?

That will be true in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sorrow and sighing will flee away, as we read in Isaiah 35. That may be my favorite passage in the entire bible...

(Lol thats talking about the kingdom of God. All those events are AFTER JUDGMENT DAY lol)

Im sorry but if you are not apart of Israel in the flesh? It has nothing to do with you. The land of israel wasnt promised to you by God.

Oh, but it was. God promised it through Abraham to all of us, Jew and Gentile alike.

(Lol.....ok keep thinking thats what it means and all people can inherit Israel lol)

Rulership over the earth and all nations wasnt promised to none but the bloodline of Israel. You clearly are misunderstood with your interpretations and you're struggling to fit your doctrine in.

In your opinion. Yeah, I getcha loud and clear.

You dont want to accept that Christ did not die for you.

Right, and it's a good thing I don't have to accept such an untruth.

If Christ indeed died for all? Then there shouldnt be no punishment of all nations who dont obey in his kingdom.

Now here, I almost agree with you. Not everyone is of Israel, for sure. Not all will be saved. So, you're right, Christ did not die for all. His atonement was sufficient for all, for sure, but He died only for those who He came to save, those whom the Father has given Him.

You see my name is TruthSeeker, im not dealing with feelings and emotions im trying to know the truth whether it excludes me or not...

Very good! I hope you find it.

the bible is clearly making a distinction between the israelites and the rest of humanity.

Well sure, the bible makes a clear distinction between those who are of Israel and those who are not all the way through. No doubt about that.

If you are not of Israel? You are below them.

Actually, no. None of us are deserving of God's grace, and equally undeserving in His eyes... unless we have Jesus.

(Yes as Dueteronomy 7:6 stated Israel is above all nations so the opposite of above is below. So youre wrong there)

We must respect this bloodline the ones of them who serve Christ that is.

No one disrespects the bloodline, Truthseeker. No one. Well, racists, anti-Semites do, I guess, but that's irrelevant. The fact remains, thought, that those of that bloodline -- depending on the individual and whether they are in Christ or not -- may or may not be truly of God's Israel.

(Actually they do, because the true Jews are descendants of the trans atlantic slave trade, but thats for a wholllllle another discussion) hatred against Blacks and Latinos is anti semetic. They are the true children of Israel.)

Trying to graft oneself into their family? Screams desperation and disrespect.

Nobody's "grafting himself in," TruthSeeker. That's not even possible.

Gods Israel........ Lmao) let me guess? This is talking about the church huh?

Well, all believers, which is Christ's true church, which includes both Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Lol ok then how come the "church" dont ever talk about the nations having to bow to them and serve them or die?

Um, because no mere man is the Head of Christ's church... Right? Well, right.

(THY LAND) all people werent promised the land of Israel. only the descendants of Israel. Its called an INHERITANCE.

Very true. But the true descendants of Israel are not all ethnic Jews, but people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. That number, as God told Abraham they would, like the stars of the heavens. Abraham was brought to the promised land in Genesis for sure. But this was just a shadow of the true Promised Land, which not just a tiny strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, but rather the whole earth.
Aaain, as Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 9Matthew 5:5)

So again the northern kingdom are the israelites that became gentiles cut off from the covenant.

Totally false. No Israelites ever "became" Gentiles. Though there were, and remained, Israelites, they were no longer of God's Israel -- at least a number of them -- because they never really were of Israel. This is much in the same vain as what John says of those who are not "of us," those who departed from the faith. Of those, John says:

• "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. the went out from us, because they were not of us..." (1 John 2:19)

Eve was the mother of ALL the living, and not all are saved. And we see the first example in Cain, who was not of us, either, unlike Abel.

The only thing spiritual about Israel is that God dont accept them unless they come in the name of Christ.

But that, as I have said, Truthseeker, IS Israel. These are the true offspring of Abraham. Through Isaac, the child of the promise. True Jews, again, in exactly the sense that Paul relates especially in Romans 2 and 11 and Galatians 3 (among other places). God's Israel.

thats whats spiritual. Not all nations are israel now.

Yeah... nobody ever intimated such. But Israel does now and will include people of every tongue, tribe and nation. It's just not complete yet. Not everyone who is or will be of Israel has been brought in yet. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11. The fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in (grafted in; v.17), and then the partial hardening that has come upon Israel will be removed (many ethnic Jews will be grafted in again; v.23), and this is how ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved (v. 26). Paul drives the point home by quoting from Isaiah 59 (vv. 20-21).

yes christ did say go into all nations and teach. Thats because israelites were using the names of all nations. They were scattered abroad and lost the name of Israel.

So you're saying that Christ said to go into all the nations and teach and make disciples... of only fellow Jews? If so, that puts you way, way outside orthodox Christian teaching (and the teaching of Christ Himself, of course). Perish the thought.

(There you go again. You keep trying to say Jew represents all 12 tribes of Israel. When they say Jew theyre only speaking of 3 tribes. This is where youre going off and becoming confused. Yes The NORTHERN KINGDOM WERE GENTILES. I still dont think youve Read Hosea 1. Go and teach all nations is referring to the lost of the rest of israel who were being called by the names of the other nations. He also said im not sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the family of Israel. So hes obviously referring to Israelites in the flesh.

Before Christ came there definitely was no spiritual israel it was in fact all bloodline, we agree there. So it cant be talking about other nations other then Israel who were the only people under the covemant with God) Hosea is old testament. God Makes a distinction between Judah (jews) and israel (northern kingdom) i dont know of this ethnic jew term you keep coming up with but For the last time JEW is short for Kingdom of Judah which only represented 3 tribes. )

I'em afraid your doctrine is the one that has the holes.

Like I said, I understand your opinion.

Grace and peace to you. And hey, grace... Why don't you try having some? You know, for a change...

[TruthSeeker916]

But ok so by your theory you believe all people will possess the land of israel in the future kingdom? And all people will possess captives and rule over their oppressors in israel? If its not bloodline.

All the prophecies of the Old Testament have an immediate context and a future, ultimate context. Regarding the latter, Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

Also Explain this too....

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN (meaning a curse) (I thought there was no more death or cursings in the kingdom of God? If its for all? Then why is there a cursing of no rain in Gods kingdom? For those who dont come to serve the feast of tabernacles an ISRAELITE TRADITION. No Rain means no food which means starvation and death, explain that.)

Sure. I don't have any real objection to the term 'curse,' as you use it here, but it's really a judgment, as in the opposite of a blessing. Both still occur today. One day there will be a final Judgment, after which only blessing will remain, as there will be no more sin.

(Judgment is a curse. You just said opposite of blessing. Thats a curse. No rain is not a blessing and judgment is not a blessing.

Judgment truthfully means death. When it says Only God can Judge you means only God can kill you for your sins as the old covenant all sims couldnt not be forgiven some sins you had to be stoned for. Commamded by God. Thats judgment (the law of the letter) but in christ all sins can be forgiven so there is no judgment. Judgment never meant dont tell someone that theyre in sin. Thats actually called love biblically to mot suffer sin upon thy neighbor is to love them. So teaching and encouraging to keep the commands is love. Judgment is killing a fellow israelite for their sins) only God has that authority in the new covenant. )

PUNISHMENT! of all nations.... So whats your take on THAT?

Right, the final Judgment will be just that.

(Punishment of all nations WHICH COME NOT UP TO KEEP FEAST OF TABERNACLES! THIS ISSSS THE KINGDOM OF GOD) AFTER ARMAGEDDON. Judgement day is to rid earth of all the wicked kingdoms and governments and turn all nations into minorities to be brought over and used to help build up the kingdom of God which is the Kingdom of Israel.. this is the days AFTER the final judgment. There will be a remnant of all nations left to be used to build up Israel and new jerusalem because the Israelites will not have to work anymore. Some more proof that israel is not all people who love christ. All people will be in the kingdom YES if were lucky to survive armegeddon and God finds use for us in the building of the new world. But only Israel will INHERIT the glory and rulership.

I thought in the Kingdom of God there was no more sorrow or punishments?

That will be true in the New Heaven and New Earth. Sorrow and sighing will flee away, as we read in Isaiah 35. That may be my favorite passage in the entire bible...

(Lol thats talking about the kingdom of God. All those events are AFTER JUDGMENT DAY lol)

Im sorry but if you are not apart of Israel in the flesh? It has nothing to do with you. The land of israel wasnt promised to you by God.

Oh, but it was. God promised it through Abraham to all of us, Jew and Gentile alike.

(Lol.....ok keep thinking thats what it means and all people can inherit Israel lol)

Rulership over the earth and all nations wasnt promised to none but the bloodline of Israel. You clearly are misunderstood with your interpretations and you're struggling to fit your doctrine in.

In your opinion. Yeah, I getcha loud and clear.

You dont want to accept that Christ did not die for you.

Right, and it's a good thing I don't have to accept such an untruth.

If Christ indeed died for all? Then there shouldnt be no punishment of all nations who dont obey in his kingdom.

Now here, I almost agree with you. Not everyone is of Israel, for sure. Not all will be saved. So, you're right, Christ did not die for all. His atonement was sufficient for all, for sure, but He died only for those who He came to save, those whom the Father has given Him.

You see my name is TruthSeeker, im not dealing with feelings and emotions im trying to know the truth whether it excludes me or not...

Very good! I hope you find it.

the bible is clearly making a distinction between the israelites and the rest of humanity.

Well sure, the bible makes a clear distinction between those who are of Israel and those who are not all the way through. No doubt about that.

If you are not of Israel? You are below them.

Actually, no. None of us are deserving of God's grace, and equally undeserving in His eyes... unless we have Jesus.

(Yes as Dueteronomy 7:6 stated Israel is above all nations so the opposite of above is below. So youre wrong there)

We must respect this bloodline the ones of them who serve Christ that is.

No one disrespects the bloodline, Truthseeker. No one. Well, racists, anti-Semites do, I guess, but that's irrelevant. The fact remains, thought, that those of that bloodline -- depending on the individual and whether they are in Christ or not -- may or may not be truly of God's Israel.

(Actually they do, because the true Jews are descendants of the trans atlantic slave trade, but thats for a wholllllle another discussion) hatred against Blacks and Latinos is anti semetic. They are the true children of Israel.)

Trying to graft oneself into their family? Screams desperation and disrespect.

Nobody's "grafting himself in," TruthSeeker. That's not even possible.

Gods Israel........ Lmao) let me guess? This is talking about the church huh?

Well, all believers, which is Christ's true church, which includes both Jew and Gentile, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Lol ok then how come the "church" dont ever talk about the nations having to bow to them and serve them or die?

Um, because no mere man is the Head of Christ's church... Right? Well, right.

(THY LAND) all people werent promised the land of Israel. only the descendants of Israel. Its called an INHERITANCE.

Very true. But the true descendants of Israel are not all ethnic Jews, but people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. That number, as God told Abraham they would, like the stars of the heavens. Abraham was brought to the promised land in Genesis for sure. But this was just a shadow of the true Promised Land, which not just a tiny strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, but rather the whole earth.
Aaain, as Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." 9Matthew 5:5)

So again the northern kingdom are the israelites that became gentiles cut off from the covenant.

Totally false. No Israelites ever "became" Gentiles. Though there were, and remained, Israelites, they were no longer of God's Israel -- at least a number of them -- because they never really were of Israel. This is much in the same vain as what John says of those who are not "of us," those who departed from the faith. Of those, John says:

• "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. the went out from us, because they were not of us..." (1 John 2:19)

Eve was the mother of ALL the living, and not all are saved. And we see the first example in Cain, who was not of us, either, unlike Abel.

The only thing spiritual about Israel is that God dont accept them unless they come in the name of Christ.

But that, as I have said, Truthseeker, IS Israel. These are the true offspring of Abraham. Through Isaac, the child of the promise. True Jews, again, in exactly the sense that Paul relates especially in Romans 2 and 11 and Galatians 3 (among other places). God's Israel.

thats whats spiritual. Not all nations are israel now.

Yeah... nobody ever intimated such. But Israel does now and will include people of every tongue, tribe and nation. It's just not complete yet. Not everyone who is or will be of Israel has been brought in yet. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11. The fullness of the Gentiles will be brought in (grafted in; v.17), and then the partial hardening that has come upon Israel will be removed (many ethnic Jews will be grafted in again; v.23), and this is how ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved (v. 26). Paul drives the point home by quoting from Isaiah 59 (vv. 20-21).

yes christ did say go into all nations and teach. Thats because israelites were using the names of all nations. They were scattered abroad and lost the name of Israel.

So you're saying that Christ said to go into all the nations and teach and make disciples... of only fellow Jews? If so, that puts you way, way outside orthodox Christian teaching (and the teaching of Christ Himself, of course). Perish the thought.

(There you go again. You keep trying to say Jew represents all 12 tribes of Israel. When they say Jew theyre only speaking of 3 tribes. This is where youre going off and becoming confused. Yes The NORTHERN KINGDOM WERE GENTILES. I still dont think youve Read Hosea 1. Go and teach all nations is referring to the lost of the rest of israel who were being called by the names of the other nations. He also said im not sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the family of Israel. So hes obviously referring to Israelites in the flesh.

Before Christ came there definitely was no spiritual israel it was in fact all bloodline, we agree there. So it cant be talking about other nations other then Israel who were the only people under the covemant with God) Hosea is old testament. God Makes a distinction between Judah (jews) and israel (northern kingdom) i dont know of this ethnic jew term you keep coming up with but For the last time JEW is short for Kingdom of Judah which only represented 3 tribes. )

I'em afraid your doctrine is the one that has the holes.

Like I said, I understand your opinion.

Grace and peace to you. And hey, grace... Why don't you try having some? You know, for a change...

[PinSeeker]

Like I said, Truthseeker, I understand your opinion. But there's very little grace in your discussion methods, and you're putting words in my mouth that I would never say. So, I'm out, my friend. I will say, though, that Hosea is one of my favorite books of the bible. And I do agree with you concerning the lost sheep of Israel, as they are among all the tongues, tribes, and nations, as I said. But it was never and will never be about the flesh, but about faith. Surely you have read the book of Hebrews, particularly chapter 11. I exhort you to continue seeking the truth. Grace and peace to you.

[TruthSeeker916]

Like I said, Truthseeker, I understand your opinion. But there's very little grace in your discussion methods, and you're putting words in my mouth that I would never say. So, I'm out, my friend. I will say, though, that Hosea is one of my favorite books of the bible. And I do agree with you concerning the lost sheep of Israel, as they are among all the tongues, tribes, and nations, as I said. But it was never and will never be about the flesh, but about faith. Surely you have read the book of Hebrews, particularly chapter 11. I exhort you to continue seeking the truth. Grace and peace to you.

Youre headed for a rude awakening. And Hebrews should tell you exactly who its talking about. The whole chapter is referring to past events that happened to the bloodline of israel. Plus its the book of HEBREWS not Egyptians, not Edomites, Not canaanites, not Moabites, ect ect HEBREWS.

[PinSeeker]

Youre headed for a rude awakening.

LOL! Um, okay, noted...

And Hebrews should tell you exactly who its talking about. The whole chapter is referring to past events that happened to the bloodline of israel.

Well, people of the bloodline... and some some not of it... who had and showed their faith in various ways. Thus, it's not about the "bloodline," but about faith. And then at that very beginning of chapter 12 -- started by the word "therefore," which should automatically alert us that instruction is coming based on what has theretofore been expounded upon -- we are exhorted to do the same kinds of actions:

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." [Hebrews 12:1-2]

So, again, it's about faith. Those who have faith are the true descendants of Abraham, whose God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

Plus its the book of HEBREWS not Egyptians, not Edomites, Not canaanites, not Moabites, ect ect HEBREWS.

Well sure it is! It is a letter to the Hebrews -- Jewish Christians of the day following the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. But even beyond that, since all those who are in Christ are true Jews and thus part of Israel (regardless of ethnicity or status) as Paul says in many places throughout his letters, it is written to all of us Christians.

Wow. You should have learned this in Christianity 101, Truthseeker. But hey, better late than never, right?

Grace and peace to you.

[TruthSeeker916]

Youre headed for a rude awakening.

LOL! Um, okay, noted...

And Hebrews should tell you exactly who its talking about. The whole chapter is referring to past events that happened to the bloodline of israel.

Well, people of the bloodline... and some some not of it... who had and showed their faith in various ways. Thus, it's not about the "bloodline," but about faith. And then at that very beginning of chapter 12 -- started by the word "therefore," which should automatically alert us that instruction is coming based on what has theretofore been expounded upon -- we are exhorted to do the same kinds of actions:

• "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." [Hebrews 12:1-2]

So, again, it's about faith. Those who have faith are the true descendants of Abraham, whose God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

Plus its the book of HEBREWS not Egyptians, not Edomites, Not canaanites, not Moabites, ect ect HEBREWS.

Well sure it is! It is a letter to the Hebrews -- Jewish Christians of the day following the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. But even beyond that, since all those who are in Christ are true Jews and thus part of Israel (regardless of ethnicity or status) as Paul says in many places throughout his letters, it is written to all of us Christians.

Wow. You should have learned this in Christianity 101, Truthseeker. But hey, better late than never, right?

Grace and peace to you.

Ok Im going to put this whole thing to bed. Paul in Romans 9 is referring to israelites who became GENTILES. He calls them Gentiles in Romans 9. You said israelites are not Gentiles a while ago. That is false doctrine.

Romans 9:24-27 (KJV) "Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As he said also in Osee, (HOSEA) I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

(You think this is referring to all people, its not man!)

"And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, You are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias (ISAIAH) also cried concerning ISRAEL Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

Children means DESCENDANTS The DESCENDANTS of ISRAEL.

When Isaiah cried in the old testament concerning Israel? You really believe he was crying for all people?

Romans 9:3-4 (KJV) "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the FLESH

(BLOODLINE not spirit)

Who are ISRAELITES!; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

WHO??? ALL PEOPLE? (ISRAELITES) naw you mean anybody? (According to the FLESH who are ISRAELITES MY KINSMEN) wow. So ISRAELITES pertain the Adoption (grafting in) the glory (the rulership) the COVENANTS (OLD AND NEW/CHRIST) THE COMMANDMENTS? AND THE SERVICE OF GOD? (PROTECTION AND BLESSINGS) AND PROMISES (THE LAND OF ISRAEL)

All people this belongs to?

WHO ARE ISRAELITES which are my FAMILY ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

The SPIRIT?

THE FLESH!!!!

Ok ok ok I get it.

So what about the gentiles?

What about em? Theyre in their time of gentiles to be fulfilled. Theyre in there heaven in their respective races and have their national glory. What about the gentiles?

But Paul said not only Jews but gentiles too will be Gods people.

Didnt you just read where Paul first thing he said was ISRAELITES ACCORDING TO THE FLESH? the Covenant belongs to.

But gentiles means people that are not with God?

Yes it does mean that... The Gentiles paul was referring to quoting HOSEA was ISRAELITES from the kingdom of Israel (ephraim/northern kingdom) that God cut off. Thus they became SPIRITUALLY GENTILES. (thats the only thing spiritual about this is the Israelites according to the flesh whom God removed from his covenant thus they were as gentiles. Thats very easy to understand. As he kept the Jews to prevent all israel from completely falling away and thus the Lords promise to israel wouldve been in vain and God is not allowing any of that. The promise to israels descendants remains forever, but it took Christ having to sacrafice his innocent life to achieve this thing.

The only thing spiritual is the Israelites who were cut off and declared no more his people until christ fulfilled his duty and gave them a 2ND CHANCE to be grafted back in to the house of israel pertaining to the promises and services of God. They were israel in the flesh but God was not dealing with them spiritually until the new covenant was ushered in.

This here is really easy to comprehend.

Romans 9:6-8 (KJV) "Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

All this is saying is just because an ISRAELITE is an ISRAELITE in the flesh? Dont mean he has favor witb God. Which is proof of him cutting them off from the covenant though they were in the flesh they were cut off for their wickedness so God did not find pleasure in them. All this is saying if an ISRAELITE wants blessings from God in their life and to obtain the glory in the future kingdom to established FOR ISRAEL? instead of death? They have to come in CHRIST and offer up Christ as their sacrafice for THEIR SINS

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) "And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name (YAHWASHI) JESUS: for he shall save HIS people from THEIR sins."

Amos 3:1-2 (KJV) "Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

You ONLY have I known (chosen) of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth: therefore I will punish YOU for all your SINS."

Israel was the only people brought out of Egypt. Clearly he was not addressing non else but the bloodline of Israel. He declared he only knows them which means chosen them to be his for a specific purpose in the earth. He knows all people he created them so obviously thats not what hes referring to. He means you only have I chosen. (ONLY out of all families)

This definitely is not refering to anything spiritual. He is not saying all races who operate in the spirit of israel only have i known. As all races werent captive in egypt. All races were not chosen by him..

You say all in christ are apart of jews and Israel? But christ calls those who claim to be jews and are not? Liars and the church of satan.

Revelation 2:9 (KJV) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Hmmm theres holes in your doctrine now brother.

Revelation 3:9 (KJV) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."

Bottom line NO ONE BUT JEWS in the flesh are JEWS. No one but Israelites in the flesh are Israel. There is no "Gods israel". Gods israel are the descendants of jacob and the 12 tribes. Period. Dont even touch it if you are not apart of it because its obviously tooken as blasphemy and disrespect in the eyes of The Lord.

I interpret that scripture to be a prophecy of the so called "jewish" people today in israel since 1948. Whom majority dont even believe in christ number 1 and God said the real israelites and jews wont return to posses their land until AFTER CHRIST RETURNS as their nation collectively are in poverty and dont have major assistance from powerful kingdoms backing them.

Uh oh....... Did i let the cat out of the back? Somebodies doing some serrrrious lying and deceit which is the spirit of Satan. Damnnnn !


All things come to light.

So dont even look at israel anymore. They say youre jew by your mother. God says youre israel by your fathers lineage. The name satan means adversary which means to be adverse or opposite of what God says. He says house of father they say nope house of mother. Lol thats satan written all over it brother, wake up.

Numbers 1:2, 18 (KJV) "Take you the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the HOUSE of their FATHERS, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees (bloodline) after their families, by the house of their FATHERS, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls."

But what about my mother?

House of your FATHERS shall you declare your pedigree in israel.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV) "For I am the LORD, I change NOT! therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

The Lord doesnt change his ways. Even in christ nothings changed as the law of sacrafice for israels sins still stands! Thats why they cant obtain salvatiin from God save they come in the name of christ who fulfilled the law of sacrafice for sins granting them grace and allowing all sins to be forgiven where as in the law of animal sacrafice all sins werent forgiven even if they possessed the finest animal in earth. Death was the sentence for certain sins. In christ now all are forgiven. But nothings changed. The commandments still stand, the law of sacrafice still stands now in christ. The lord changes not.

Its always been the house of their fathers. It should alarm you why they refuse to go by their fathers house yet stubbornly hold their own man made tradition of mothers house.

Common sense tell you that your fathers line connects you to your real lineage as mother is given the seed to deliver but father carries the seed, it comes from the father FIRST. And the fruit will be what the seed was.

Apple seed, apple fruit, orange seed, orange fruit ect ect. The soil/the tree (the mother) nurtures the seed and is a vessel to help produce and care for the seeds FRUIT.

So the so called jewish are the church of satan Christ was referring to claiming to be something they are not. Theyre descendants of Romans (esau/edom) is who they are.

Real gentiles inhabit the land of israel as prophecy stated would happen. And judgment is coming from God to repay that sin.

So in closing on that point? No you cannot say youre Gods israel. Thats a big no no. If you are not physically from them you cant claim to be them. Thats like saying youre bruce springsteen because you feel his spirit. No youre not youre you and hes him. You just appreciate and enjoy his music. But if you claim to be him he will look at you like youre coo coo crazy. (I know you dont technically claim to be israel, but your doctrine pretty much says all people in christ are apart of israel) when clearly Christ has an issue with that.

And paul backed me up when he said ISRAELITES ACCORDING TO THE FLESH
GOD backed me up when he said ISRAEL is the only bloodline hes known (chosen) and Christ backed me up by saying those who claim to be jews and are not are the church of satan.

Soooo how can you refute that?

Now am i saying dont serve the lord? And be lawless? Hell no. Serve God and in the end every knee will bow and all will know the lord personally. Righteous or wicked. All will be in the kingdom. Serve the lord respect the real israelites in christ if you come in contact with them. Walk in righteousness and im sure God will allow you to live a great life. That does not mean you are to inherit israels coming kingdom though amd you are now on the same level as them.

God hasnt even ended this world yet because hes waiting on israel to repent and return to him so he can redeem them. You wonder why he allows so much evil to continue? And has not intervened to stop it? Is for a reason. Number 1 were in the time of gentiles and america is the LAST powerful gentile kingdom before he returns so when america starts its descencion? (No kingdom reigns forever) thats when it will be time for the 2nd coming. And it appears were in those stages this very day because america is slipping and the nations are waiting for that slip to prey on them.

I say them because I serve God I dont serve a gentile kingdom nor worship a flag of a gentile kingdom who done great evil and has not been repaid for its sins. Who does not deserve the glory it has. I serve God. I just live here.

I will never succeed to the highest in this world neither because satan awaits at the top as the powers that be hate God so i would have to compromise my soul and beliefs to achieve and im not doing that. So im fine with whatever God gives me. I will be happy and appreciate the blessings of the neccessities which the Lords prayer provides.

But now in conclusion of my whole original point...

Stop saying Jews as to say all israel. There is a seperation, jews only rep 3 tribes period. And the gentiles paul referred to called not Gods people are in FACT (go fact check it ) The israelites of the northern kingdom.

Hosea (OSEE) 1:7-11 (KJV) "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, (jews) and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (Christ)

Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for you are not my people, and I will not be your God.
(Romans 9:24-27)

Yet the number of the "children of Israel" shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, (children of Israel) You are NOT my people, (GENTILES) there it shall be said unto them, YOU are the sons of the living God. (ISRAEL AGAIN)

Then shall the children of Judah (JEWS) and the children of Israel (EPHRAIM/NORTHERN KINGDOM) be gathered TOGETHER, (not all people) and appoint themselves one head, (CHRIST) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

Peace be unto you.