A Promise Unkept

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Overcomer and Sojourner seem to have hit the nail on the head here. The context is responding to a person who “sins against you” as the NIV puts it.

All the translations from the first post agree that verse 19 starts with Jesus saying “again” or “to put it another way.” So clearly Jesus was continuing a topic he had just been discussing.

Overcomer gave the full text in post 18. Jesus opened by saying “if your brother or sister sins,” and then went step by step through the efforts to bring that person to repentance, and what to do if he or she refuses to repent.

If you are really committed to taking verse 19 out of context so that it can mean what you want it to mean, instead of what it means in context, then nothing is going to change your mind. At least a couple of people who have posted on this site in the past have said that they don’t care what the context of a passage is, and I suppose that they are free to take that approach. However anyone who wants to understand what the Bible says, and not just prove that the Bible is somehow wrong, will see that the passage is about responding to a person fallen in sin and not about God granting people whatever they ask for.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Overcomer and Sojourner seem to have hit the nail on the head here. The context is responding to a person who “sins against you” as the NIV puts it.

All the translations from the first post agree that verse 19 starts with Jesus saying “again” or “to put it another way.” So clearly Jesus was continuing a topic he had just been discussing.

Yes they do, because it's the most popular rendition, but being most popular doesn't mean they're interpreting them as you do. As I've pointed out, other bibles have very dissimilar openings to verse 19, which comprise a wide range of introductory phrases, such as:

"I promise that when any two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"Also, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree . . . . "

“I can guarantee again that if two of you agree . . . . "

“And I tell you more: whenever two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. When two of you get together on anything at all . . . . "

“I can guarantee that if any two of you agree . . . . "

“I also tell you this: If two of you agree . . . . "

"I tell you another thing. If two of you on earth agree"

Think the scholars who put these Bibles together simply missed the context connection you claim? Hardly. Please read on. . . .

Overcomer gave the full text in post 18. Jesus opened by saying “if your brother or sister sins,” and then went step by step through the efforts to bring that person to repentance, and what to do if he or she refuses to repent.

Fine. Let's take a look at the translation of Matthew 18:15-19 Overcomer posted and assume the “Again, truly I tell you" phrase is crucial.

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Note that when verse 19 says, “Again, truly I tell you. . . ." it's only reflecting on verse 18. And how do we know this? because it repeats the introductory phrase to 18, which is “Truly I tell you . . . . And what is verse 18 "truly telling you"? It's truly telling you that

................. "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven

Or in the words of the ERV bible:

................. "I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s ................. forgiveness."


This is a stand alone comment and is in no way dependent on what Jesus said before. If you feel verse is dependent on verses 15-17 please explain how this dependency works. And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17.

and verse 19 says

“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

OR

To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

If you are really committed to taking verse 19 out of context so that it can mean what you want it to mean, instead of what it means in context, then nothing is going to change your mind.

Fine, then show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Miles in post #1]


Overcomer and Sojourner seem to have hit the nail on the head here. The context is responding to a person who “sins against you” as the NIV puts it.

All the translations from the first post agree that verse 19 starts with Jesus saying “again” or “to put it another way.” So clearly Jesus was continuing a topic he had just been discussing.

Yes they do, because it's the most popular rendition, but being most popular doesn't mean they're interpreting them as you do. As I've pointed out, other bibles have very dissimilar openings to verse 19, which comprise a wide range of introductory phrases, such as:

"I promise that when any two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"Also, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree . . . . "

“I can guarantee again that if two of you agree . . . . "

“And I tell you more: whenever two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. When two of you get together on anything at all . . . . "

“I can guarantee that if any two of you agree . . . . "

“I also tell you this: If two of you agree . . . . "

"I tell you another thing. If two of you on earth agree"

Think the scholars who put these Bibles together simply missed the context connection you claim? Hardly. Please read on. . . .

Overcomer gave the full text in post 18. Jesus opened by saying “if your brother or sister sins,” and then went step by step through the efforts to bring that person to repentance, and what to do if he or she refuses to repent.

Fine. Let's take a look at the translation of Matthew 18:15-19 Overcomer posted and assume the “Again, truly I tell you" phrase is crucial.

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

Note that when verse 19 says, “Again, truly I tell you. . . ." it's only reflecting on verse 18. And how do we know this? because it repeats the introductory phrase to 18, which is “Truly I tell you . . . . And what is verse 18 "truly telling you"? It's truly telling you that

................. "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven

Or in the words of the ERV bible:

................. "I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s ................. forgiveness."


This is a stand alone comment and is in no way dependent on what Jesus said before. If you feel verse is dependent on verses 15-17 please explain how this dependency works. And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17.

and verse 19 says

“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

OR

To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

If you are really committed to taking verse 19 out of context so that it can mean what you want it to mean, instead of what it means in context, then nothing is going to change your mind.

Fine, then show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

.

You have already provided the evidence that verse 19 is a continuation of verses 15-18. You continue to quote various translations of verse 19, and these translations, like all the ones previously provided, start by saying “Also…” or “And I tell you more…” or “I also tell you this…” Your own posts demonstrate the connection between verse 19 and the earlier verse.

If anyone is curious, the Greek word at the start of verse 19 is palin. It is an adverb which means “again” or “in addition.”

This is not about missing a connection or making some theological point. This is just basic grammar.

[Miles]

You have already provided the evidence that verse 19 is a continuation of verses 15-18. You continue to quote various translations of verse 19, and these translations, like all the ones previously provided, start by saying “Also…” or “And I tell you more…” or “I also tell you this…” Your own posts demonstrate the connection between verse 19 and the earlier verse.

If anyone is curious, the Greek word at the start of verse 19 palin. It is an adverb which means “again” or “in addition.”

This is not about missing a connection or making some theological point. This is just basic grammar.

And as I already said:

"show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17."

[bjs1]

You have already provided the evidence that verse 19 is a continuation of verses 15-18. You continue to quote various translations of verse 19, and these translations, like all the ones previously provided, start by saying “Also…” or “And I tell you more…” or “I also tell you this…” Your own posts demonstrate the connection between verse 19 and the earlier verse.

If anyone is curious, the Greek word at the start of verse 19 palin. It is an adverb which means “again” or “in addition.”

This is not about missing a connection or making some theological point. This is just basic grammar.

And as I already said:

"show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17."

You have already established that verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18. You have pointed out, repeatedly, that Jesus began this sentence by saying “Again.” (Palin in Greek.) So whatever Jesus said in verse 19 is a continuation of what had said just prior. The only way to know the meaning of Jesus’s words in verse 19 is too look at what Jesus said in the prior verses. Verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18.

You may uses as many bold fonts or lager type sizes as you wish, it will not change how basic grammar functions.

That’s really all there is to be said. Any interpretation of verses 19 that is not built on the proceeding verses will be unreliable eisegesis.

[Miles]

You have already provided the evidence that verse 19 is a continuation of verses 15-18. You continue to quote various translations of verse 19, and these translations, like all the ones previously provided, start by saying “Also…” or “And I tell you more…” or “I also tell you this…” Your own posts demonstrate the connection between verse 19 and the earlier verse.

If anyone is curious, the Greek word at the start of verse 19 palin. It is an adverb which means “again” or “in addition.”

This is not about missing a connection or making some theological point. This is just basic grammar.

And as I already said:

"show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17."

You have already established that verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18. You have pointed out, repeatedly, that Jesus began this sentence by saying “Again.” (Palin in Greek.) So whatever Jesus said in verse 19 is a continuation of what had said just prior. The only way to know the meaning of Jesus’s words in verse 19 is too look at what Jesus said in the prior verses. Verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18.

You may uses as many bold fonts or lager type sizes as you wish, it will not change how basic grammar functions.

That’s really all there is to be said. Any interpretation of verses 19 that is not built on the proceeding verses will be unreliable eisegesis.

Have a good day.

.

[bjs1]

You have already provided the evidence that verse 19 is a continuation of verses 15-18. You continue to quote various translations of verse 19, and these translations, like all the ones previously provided, start by saying “Also…” or “And I tell you more…” or “I also tell you this…” Your own posts demonstrate the connection between verse 19 and the earlier verse.

If anyone is curious, the Greek word at the start of verse 19 palin. It is an adverb which means “again” or “in addition.”

This is not about missing a connection or making some theological point. This is just basic grammar.

And as I already said:

"show us how verse 19, and essentially 18, are dependent on the context of 15-17, and, at best, not simply relevant.

And take note that while it's certainty not dependent on 15-17 I can buy the idea that Jesus felt it was relevant to the three verses, but being dependent and being relevant are not the same thing. The message in 18 &19 does not depend on what is said in 15-17."

You have already established that verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18. You have pointed out, repeatedly, that Jesus began this sentence by saying “Again.” (Palin in Greek.) So whatever Jesus said in verse 19 is a continuation of what had said just prior. The only way to know the meaning of Jesus’s words in verse 19 is too look at what Jesus said in the prior verses. Verse 19 is dependent on verses 15-18.

You may uses as many bold fonts or lager type sizes as you wish, it will not change how basic grammar functions.

That’s really all there is to be said. Any interpretation of verses 19 that is not built on the proceeding verses will be unreliable eisegesis.

Have a good day.

.

Thanks! You too.

[koko]

There are many reports in the New Testament of Jesus performing miracles such as feeding masses of people with only one basket of food, healing the sick, and raising the dead. He then promised that his miracles could be duplicated and surpassed by his ministers in John 14:12. There is absolutely no indication this was a pledge restricted to the apostolic era. This is a promise he did not keep. However, if any of you feel he did keep his word, kindly direct me to any church which duplicates and surpasses his miracles so that we can see demonstrations of those fulfilled promises.




https://biblehub.com/john/14-12.htm

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to koko in post #28]

koko wrote:
There are many reports in the New Testament of Jesus performing miracles such as feeding masses of people with only one basket of food, healing the sick, and raising the dead. He then promised that his miracles could be duplicated and surpassed by his ministers in John 14:12. There is absolutely no indication this was a pledge restricted to the apostolic era. This is a promise he did not keep. However, if any of you feel he did keep his word, kindly direct me to any church which duplicates and surpasses his miracles so that we can see demonstrations of those fulfilled promises.

Good Afternoon Koko.

While I know there did exist a church where these things were done, and even witnessed a few of them, myself, it was a few decades back and the church has now shattered into hundreds of tiny groups, and are now mostly memories of days gone by. Part of the criteria for God's intervention into the affairs of men, is a willingness to obey His Law. Very few are willing to do that, according to His will. By and large, most create God in their own image, Psa 50:21  These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you;...

It greatly diminishes the chance of seeing God intervene in a person's life. But, even so, I still see it from time to time. The time is coming where it will be done again, publicly, for the same reasons it was done publicly in the past. It will establish who God's people are to the world at large, to finish a work begun long ago.

Soj

[koko]

Good Afternoon Koko.

While I know there did exist a church where these things were done, and even witnessed a few of them, myself, it was a few decades back and the church has now shattered into hundreds of tiny groups, and are now mostly memories of days gone by. Part of the criteria for God's intervention into the affairs of men, is a willingness to obey His Law. Very few are willing to do that, according to His will. By and large, most create God in their own image, Psa 50:21  These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you;...

It greatly diminishes the chance of seeing God intervene in a person's life. But, even so, I still see it from time to time. The time is coming where it will be done again, publicly, for the same reasons it was done publicly in the past. It will establish who God's people are to the world at large, to finish a work begun long ago.

Soj

Hi Sojourner,


First, you have a great name. Definitely, the best here in DC.

Second, thanks for your reply. If I may ask, please identify which church you are referring as the one performing these miracle actions. If you prefer, please send me a PM so that its privacy can be kept.


Such miraculous actions have been claimed by church people over the years. However, nearly all have been found to be nothing more than money making scams. There are many video exposés on youtube which reveal the truth about these groups with several preachers winding up in prison for their fraud.

While I admire the historical Jesus, I am disappointed with the fact that this important facet of his ministry never panned out. The New Testament shows him preaching about half the time. The rest of his time was spent in performing miracles. Whenever he healed anyone he always said "thy sins are forgiven". This because miracles represent the divine forgiveness of sin. But if miracles are not to happen, if people are not to be forgiven, then what is the use of having a Redeemer? By not having miracles, it shows Jesus was a FAIL. Totally. This is why we must have miracles and healings - so that, indeed, his mission as Redeemer is fulfilled. He plainly stated that his ministers could and would duplicate and surpass the many miracles he performed. Again, there is absolutely no indication that this was a special dispensation granted only during the Apostolic era. In fact it expressly states that Jesus is the same today as he ever was. On that basis we MUST have the same actions that were shown in the New Testament. There simply is no excuse or reason for nothing having it.

So if you will, kindly direct me to those healers you say you know.



Ask & ye shall receive ...