A Promise Unkept

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Miles
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A Promise Unkept

Post #1

Post by Miles »

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.
Last edited by Miles on Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #11

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:36 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:33 pm . . if you reread closely, I was not talking about those prayers that "are in fact contrary to Gods will and purpose," but "prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted."
And do you claim to know what god's will and purpose is at any given time?
Thing is, I don't buy the excuse at all, and never have. God's will and purpose is your alibi for his unwillingness to keep the promise made in Matthew 18:19. If you recall, I only went along with it for the sake of discussion (post#4): " But pretending that some prayers are rejected because they're contrary to god's will and purpose, . . . ."
Last edited by Miles on Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #12

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to Miles in post #9]

Good Afternoon Miles...

Okay, so, putting context aside, it actually says this, as a direct translation from the Greek.

Again, Truly, I am saying to all of you that if ever two they should be agreeing out of all of you on the Earth concerning every matter which if ever they should be requesting, it shall occur to them παρα or para (mostly it means beside but it is also used as beyond, or by or of or from or than or with) the Father.

Soj

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #13

Post by Miles »

Sojournerofthearth wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:31 pm [Replying to Miles in post #9]

Good Afternoon Miles...

Okay, so, putting context aside, it actually says this, as a direct translation from the Greek.

Again, Truly, I am saying to all of you that if ever two they should be agreeing out of all of you on the Earth concerning every matter which if ever they should be requesting, it shall occur to them παρα or para (mostly it means beside but it is also used as beyond, or by or of or from or than or with) the Father.

Soj
In other words, all the Bibles that have different versions are wrong, but your translation here, whether it's your own or comes from someone else, is correct. The question though is why should I trust you or your source (which, if this happens to be the case, should be displayed here) rather than those scholars and translators who put the various Bibles together? Do you or your source have special knowledge or abilities they didn't?

.
Last edited by Miles on Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #14

Post by Sojournerofthearth »

[Replying to Miles in post #13]

it's just the words translated individually...look up ISA. A lot of the translations are clouded by church dogma. I like Concordant Literal Version or the KJV, sometimes, Young's Literal Version. But I don't believe that the Bible is just a collection of one line aphorisms. One might grab a line out of the middle of no where and make a doctrine and a dogma out of it.. or use it to make a nonsensical point. I try to look at the book as a whole and let the Bible interpret itself.

But, Really, it's of no consequence; you see what you want to see.

You have a good evening,

Soj

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #15

Post by DavidLeon »

Miles wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:20 amThen please point out the conditional in "if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask."

Nope. Jesus said "anything," and without qualification. But pretending that some prayers are rejected because they're contrary to god's will and purpose, what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted? ---and please, no claims of a "will and purpose" so broad that it excludes just about all of the billions upon billions of requests. In fact, if god's "will and purpose" was such a game changer Jesus would not have said "anything," or do so without qualification. Nope. Either

Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

OR

Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

Unfortunately, there's MATTHEW 18:19 sitting just out side your door that says none of what you've posted makes any difference. "Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father." And anything you post that attempts to pervert MATTHEW 18:19 is just bad apologetics.
You are taking a typical atheistic literal interpretation without putting much thought into it. Instead of the emphasis on anything why not the emphasis on prayer? It might not hurt for you to do some research on, not only what the word prayer means but also consider who Jesus was talking to and what position Jehovah has taken on prayer in the past. For example, Proverbs 28:9; Psalm 109:3-7.
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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #16

Post by Miles »

Sojournerofthearth wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:20 pm [Replying to Miles in post #13]

it's just the words translated individually...look up ISA.
Yet you've gone to the trouble of posting what you think is a better translation. Even saying, "it actually says this, as a direct translation from the Greek."Actually," as in "Don't trust the others who don't actually say what is meant."
Sojournerofthearth wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:20 pm But, Really, it's of no consequence;
Well of consequence enough for you to bother translating and posting it. :wink:

Sojournerofthearth wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:20 pm you see what you want to see.
And the only thing I've seen here is your attempt to what, set all the other translations straight?

You have a good evening as well,

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #17

Post by Miles »

DavidLeon wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:20 amThen please point out the conditional in "if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask."

Nope. Jesus said "anything," and without qualification. But pretending that some prayers are rejected because they're contrary to god's will and purpose, what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted? ---and please, no claims of a "will and purpose" so broad that it excludes just about all of the billions upon billions of requests. In fact, if god's "will and purpose" was such a game changer Jesus would not have said "anything," or do so without qualification. Nope. Either

Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

OR

Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

Unfortunately, there's MATTHEW 18:19 sitting just out side your door that says none of what you've posted makes any difference. "Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father." And anything you post that attempts to pervert MATTHEW 18:19 is just bad apologetics.
You are taking a typical atheistic literal interpretation without putting much thought into it.
And you're taking the typical lay apologist's tack of saying just about anything to save scripture from criticism.
DavidLeon wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 pm Instead of the emphasis on anything why not the emphasis on prayer?
Because praying is a very common practice, and I fail to see anything about it worth emphasizing, whereas granting "anything" is quite surprising and at the crux of the promise.
DavidLeon wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:50 pm It might not hurt for you to do some research on, not only what the word prayer means but also consider who Jesus was talking to and what position Jehovah has taken on prayer in the past. For example, Proverbs 28:9; Psalm 109:3-7.
Believe it or not, but I'm fairly well versed in the ins and outs of Christianity (I was one once). Enough, in fact, to recognize that Proverbs 28:9 and Psalm 109:3-7 are completely irrelevant to the issue of verse 19. And thinking about it, it might not hurt for you to spend a bit more time going over Bible verses before selecting them to illustrate a point. :wink:

.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #18

Post by Overcomer »

It is imperative to read verses in context. This is not just true of the Bible, but of all writing, whether it's a letter or a legal brief or a scientific report or a novel or whatever. People can take out one line and make it mean whatever they want. Here's the rule of thumb re: taking a statement out of context: If you use it out of context and it still means what it does in context, that's fine. But if you change it's meaning when you take it out of context, that's not acceptable.

That's what people have a tendency to do with this particular verse. They take it out of context and make it mean whatever they want. But verses 15 through 20 are a unit and verse 18 can only be understood by reading it in context. Here's the entire passage:

Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”


The heading in the NIV tells us what the passage is about -- dealing with sin in the church. In summary, it says that, when there are members caught up in sin and talking to them about it does no good, then they should be brought before the church, the leaders of which will decide what is to be done. They do this as representatives of Christ. Whatever two or three leaders agree upon re: the sinful behaviour in the church, that is what will be done.

This is how the Jews in the church would have understood this passage because it refers back to Deuteronomy 17 and 19 which also deal with discipline and the law and the need for two or three witnesses in any arbitration.

Here is how Bible scholar D. A. Carson explains Matt. 18:19:

This procedure comes from Deut 19:15. Taking “one or two” people with you adds up to “two or three” witnesses. Not eyewitnesses of the sin, but those who can testify as to how the attempt at reconciliation goes.” And 18:20, “While Christ is present is even the smallest gathering of his people, his point in this context is that heaven is in accord (v.19) with believers who follow his instructions regarding church discipline.”

Apologist Tim Chaffey puts it another way:

“It is with this in mind that Jesus said the Father would grant the request of two or more who gather together in Christ’s name and are in agreement. Agreement on what? On disciplining the erring brother. That’s what this passage is about and yet so many Christians use it as though Jesus promises to answer their prayers when offered in certain situations.”

See here for more:

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-s ... rtant.html

So the verse isn't talking about praying and getting whatever you want because somebody else agreed with you.

For more, watch this brief video:


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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #19

Post by Miles »

Overcomer wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:42 pm It is imperative to read verses in context. This is not just true of the Bible, but of all writing, whether it's a letter or a legal brief or a scientific report or a novel or whatever. People can take out one line and make it mean whatever they want. Here's the rule of thumb re: taking a statement out of context: If you use it out of context and it still means what it does in context, that's fine. But if you change it's meaning when you take it out of context, that's not acceptable.

That's what people have a tendency to do with this particular verse. They take it out of context and make it mean whatever they want. But verses 15 through 20 are a unit and verse 18 can only be understood by reading it in context. Here's the entire passage:

Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The heading in the NIV tells us what the passage is about -- dealing with sin in the church.

That's interesting because of the eight Bibles I looked at that included a heading for Matthew 18:15 . . . , not one mentions a thing about dealing with "sin in the church" but rather something else entirely. In fact, half didn't call it "sin" at all, but "wrong(s)

["Heading" / bible version / uses "SIN" or "WRONG"]

"When Someone Hurts You" in the ERV version "WRONG"

"Reproving Another Who Sins" in the RSV version "SIN"

"Confronting a Brother Who Sins Against You" in the LEB version "SIN"

"Dealing with a Brother who Sins" in the ISV version "SIN"

Dealing with Believers When They Do Wrong NOG version "WRONG"

"Sinning brother or sister" in the CEB version "SIN"

Dealing with Believers When They Do Wrong GW version "WRONGS"

"Reconciliation must always be attempted" in the PHILLIPS version "WRONG"


So, so much for what the NIV tells you.

Overcomer wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:42 pm In summary, it says that, when there are members caught up in sin and talking to them about it does no good, then they should be brought before the church, the leaders of which will decide what is to be done. They do this as representatives of Christ. Whatever two or three leaders agree upon re: the sinful behaviour in the church, that is what will be done.

That's what verses 15-17 may tell you, but it's certainly not what 18 & 19 say.

Verse 18 tells us “ I promise you that God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth, but he will not allow anything you don’t allow."

Verse tells us 19 "I promise that when any two of you on earth agree about something you are praying for, my Father in heaven will do it for you."



As for the video, which is truly cringe worthy, the fact is not all Bibles say something like "Again I say to you," but use a wide range of introductory phrases, such as

"I promise that when any two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"Also, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree . . . . "

“I can guarantee again that if two of you agree . . . . "

“And I tell you more: whenever two of you on earth agree . . . . "

"What you say to one another is eternal. I mean this. When two of you get together on anything at all . . . . "

“I can guarantee again that if two of you agree . . . . "

“I also tell you this: If two of you agree . . . . "

I tell you another thing. If two of you on earth agree


.
Last edited by Miles on Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Promise Unkept

Post #20

Post by Quantrill »

Miles wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:51 pm Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never grated it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.
Sure it did. Just happened to come up in a discussion. I've heard these stories before. What probably happened is you found a list of 'contradictions in the Bible' and chose this one as you believe it is the most damaging.

Concerning peace on earth, God is working on it. Such a general prayer is made all the time by non-christians as it makes them look so holy and good. But then God is not responding to the non-christians prayer for peace. The Christian knows peace will only come when Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning in Jerusalem over the world. That is coming. And we continue to pray for it.

The death of a child, or the return of a dog, all involves the will of God and the persons it is affecting. Sometimes they are healed, sometimes not. Sometimes the dog returns, sometimes not. (Matt. 18:19) is not the only verse on prayer. And we do not take one verse and establish a doctrine on it. We take the full testimony of Scripture.

(Matt. 18:15-35) is dealing with Church authority and how that authority is established and accepted by God concerning discipline and forgiveness in the the Church. This concerns the binding and loosing spoken of in (Matt. 18:18). So, even if the Church authority only consists of two or three, God will recognize it and what they are agreeing upon, concerning the discipline and forgiveness in the Church, God will do for them.

Quantrill

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