What is Man?

[Sojournerofthearth]

I know there are a wide variety of beliefs in this forum, encompassing any imaginable range of ideologies of who and what God is.

But I am curious, what, do you believe, is the purpose for the creation of mankind?

Why did God create Him?
What is the purpose of his existence on this Earth at this time?
What do you believe is the role of mankind in the resurrection?
And what do you believe, at his "change" that he will be changed to?
And what do you believe is the criteria to attain that resurrection?
What will prevent him from receiving his reward?
What do you base your beliefs, regarding mankind, on?

Soj

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #13]

2timothy316 wrote:
We don't know what the rest of the universe is for yet. Jehovah God is at rest from creation right now. "He began to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had been doing." Gen 2:2.
Note it says that He began to rest from His works. This verse comes right after the creation of the the Earth. This seems to imply two things, 1. That Jehovah is still resting today from creating new life. 2. There could be another creative period in the future. There is nothing to guarantee that though. The Bible is for getting faithful people through the sad state mankind is in and not to inform us in detail about the future of the whole universe.

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

The increase of His Government, plant the heavens, a new heaven and a new Earth, created to be inhabited but were MADE tohu and bohu, but not by God. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard the plans God has for mankind. I think you may be underestimating what awaits mankind.

Soj

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #13]

2timothy316 wrote:
We don't know what the rest of the universe is for yet. Jehovah God is at rest from creation right now. "He began to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had been doing." Gen 2:2.
Note it says that He began to rest from His works. This verse comes right after the creation of the the Earth. This seems to imply two things, 1. That Jehovah is still resting today from creating new life. 2. There could be another creative period in the future. There is nothing to guarantee that though. The Bible is for getting faithful people through the sad state mankind is in and not to inform us in detail about the future of the whole universe.

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

The increase of His Government, plant the heavens, a new heaven and a new Earth, created to be inhabited but were MADE tohu and bohu, but not by God. Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard the plans God has for mankind. I think you may be underestimating what awaits mankind.

Soj

I do want to presume too much beyond what the Bible says. The future past Armageddon is vague, for good reason. So that we do not jump ahead of what I need to focus on now. If I want to see what is to come, I need to endure through this mess the world is in now. If you want to see what is to come you too will need to focus on how to 'endure to the end'. (Matt 24:13)

[2timothy316]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #27]

I only attack your doctrine. If you feel that is a personal attack, there is nothing I can do about that. I reply to you as I would the other misled hundreds of millions that that follow the same scriptureless doctrine you do. If you want to stop feeling targeted, then start accepting the Bible for what it says. You say that God created man for His glory. Prove in it scripture. If you can't then accept that you're doctrine is false and come to know the true God of love and not self-serving glory.

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #32]

2timothy316 wrote:
If you want to see what is to come you too will need to focus on how to 'endure to the end'.

I can certainly agree with you on that.

Soj

[PinSeeker]

I only attack your doctrine.

Then maybe you should try to do it in something resembling a congenial, conversational, humble -- even winsome -- way. If your intent is to be evangelistic, then that's a good thing. But if you do it in a mean-spirited way -- which you most certainly have -- then that's... not good. It's sin, actually. I can only exhort you (even Scripturally) not to do it; far be it from me to judge or even condemn you for it, as that's only God's rightful place.

If you feel that is a personal attack, there is nothing I can do about that.

Well I don't "feel" anything, but rather know; it's clear for anyone to see here. Like I said though, I don't really care. But as for you, yes there is something you can do about it. Surely you're not saying you have no choice but to attack, whether it's me or "my doctrine" or anything else. That you choose not do speaks volumes. Anyone can say anything, but what they do is what matters.

...start accepting the Bible for what it says.

Sure, well, again, same to you. Same to you. But you'll have to get out from under the Watchtower folks to do that.

You say that God created man for His glory. Prove in it scripture. If you can't then accept that you're doctrine is false and come to know the true God of love and not self-serving glory.

AH! So that's what you can't get past! You think God creating man and all things for His own glory is merely self-serving and loveless... in a selfish, sinful sense. That's surely not the case. I know you don't mean to, but you're attributing human sinfulness to God. That God seeks to glorify Himself is confirmed throughout all of Scripture, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22:

• "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." [Genesis 1:1]

• The first four Commandments are about God [Exodus 20:3-11]:
  
  • "You shall have no other gods before me."
  • "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
  • "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain."
  • "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

• "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." [Psalm 19:1]

• "I am the LORD; that is my name; My glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." [Isaiah 42:8]

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." [Romans 11:33-36]

• "...to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen." [Romans 16:27]

• "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." [1 Corinthians 10:31]

• "For God, Who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." [2 Corinthians 4:6]

• In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:11-14]

• "...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." [Philippians 2:13]

• "...we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory." [1 Thessalonians 2:12]

• "To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." [1 Timothy 1:17]

• "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature..." [2 Peter 1:3-4]

• “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by Your will they existed and were created.” [Revelation 4:11]

Most assuredly, God's seeking after His own glory is not merely self-serving and devoid of love. To think so is absolutely ridiculous. No Scriptural support? To think that -- unintentional as it may be -- is to refute Scripture from beginning to end. Surely that's enough for you. But whether it is or not is not my concern, really. If you disagree, your argument is with Jehovah God.

Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #32]

2timothy316 wrote:
If you want to see what is to come you too will need to focus on how to 'endure to the end'.

I can certainly agree with you on that.

Yes, I agree with that, too. But if anyone relies merely on himself to endure to the end, he or she will surely in the end be disappointed.

Grace and peace to all.

[2timothy316]

I only attack your doctrine.

Then maybe you should try to do it in something resembling a congenial, conversational, humble -- even winsome -- way. If your intent is to be evangelistic, then that's a good thing. But if you do it in a mean-spirited way -- which you most certainly have -- then that's... not good. It's sin, actually. I can only exhort you (even Scripturally) not to do it; far be it from me to judge or even condemn you for it, as that's only God's rightful place.

You're mistaken that my replies are for you. My posts are to dispute your doctrines with the Bible for other people that read the debates in these forums. I can't help if what the Bible makes me look 'mean-spirited' to you but I will continue to meet false doctrines with the Bible despite how it makes you feel.

If you feel that is a personal attack, there is nothing I can do about that.

Well I don't "feel" anything, but rather know; it's clear for anyone to see here. Like I said though, I don't really care. But as for you, yes there is something you can do about it. Surely you're not saying you have no choice but to attack, whether it's me or "my doctrine" or anything else. That you choose not do speaks volumes. Anyone can say anything, but what they do is what matters.

I will dispute your doctrine and yes I hope that is clear. This is a debate forum after all. And yes I do choose to debunk doctrines that make Jehovah God selfish. I will contest such doctrines every time.

...start accepting the Bible for what it says.

Sure, well, again, same to you. Same to you. But you'll have to get out from under the Watchtower folks to do that.

If the JWs dissolved this very moment, it wouldn't change what the Bible says, in that your doctrine that God created mankind for selfish reasons would still be scripturally wrong. I would still believe the doctrine you teach to be wrong JWs or no JWs. If I left the JW where would I go? Your religion that view it's doctrine as better than the Bible? Strike out on my own? No way! To suggest such a thing deserves the response, Get behind me Satan.

You say that God created man for His glory. Prove in it scripture. If you can't then accept that you're doctrine is false and come to know the true God of love and not self-serving glory.

AH! So that's what you can't get past! You think God creating man and all things for His own glory is merely self-serving and loveless... in a selfish, sinful sense. That's surely not the case. I know you don't mean to, but you're attributing human sinfulness to God. That God seeks to glorify Himself is confirmed throughout all of Scripture, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22:

• "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." [Genesis 1:1]

• The first four Commandments are about God [Exodus 20:3-11]:
  
  • "You shall have no other gods before me."
  • "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
  • "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain."
  • "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

• "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork." [Psalm 19:1]

• "I am the LORD; that is my name; My glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols." [Isaiah 42:8]

• "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." [Romans 11:33-36]

• "...to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen." [Romans 16:27]

• "So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." [1 Corinthians 10:31]

• "For God, Who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." [2 Corinthians 4:6]

• In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." [Ephesians 1:11-14]

• "...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." [Philippians 2:13]

• "...we exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory." [1 Thessalonians 2:12]

• "To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." [1 Timothy 1:17]

• "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature..." [2 Peter 1:3-4]

• “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by Your will they existed and were created.” [Revelation 4:11]

Most assuredly, God's seeking after His own glory is not merely self-serving and devoid of love. To think so is absolutely ridiculous. No Scriptural support? To think that -- unintentional as it may be -- is to refute Scripture from beginning to end. Surely that's enough for you. But whether it is or not is not my concern, really. If you disagree, your argument is with Jehovah God.

Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316.

Not a single one of these scriptures say that mankind was created for His glory. Not a single one. See your doctrine puts man's sins on God. People don't do much other than to serve themselves, you're projecting this flaw on the Almighty. While God's glory is in creation, there is no scripture that says that Jehovah God created man to satisfy His want for glory. You keep saying, "You think God creating man and all things for His own glory is merely self-serving and loveless... in a selfish, sinful sense. That's surely not the case." and you're right. but you keep saying that He created man for His glory which is wrong. 1 john 4:8 says, "God is love". not God is glory. To do something for one's own glory is self-serving. You can't spin that any other way. You keep trying but it's not scriptural. Which is a more important quality in Jehovah? His love or His glory? 1 John 4:8 says God IS love. This is the most important quality in Jehovah. 1 John 4 even says those that don't know love, don't know God. What drives Him to do anything is love. Even to glorify Himself to His creation is so that others will see that His love is our best option. Glory has it's place and the doctrine you put forth for God reason for creating mankind keeps putting it in the wrong place. People can either humbly accept that God is love and this determines everything He does or they can pridefully reject it and say that He is more concerned with His own glory. If they do, then they reject 1 John 4:8 and John 3:16.

[PinSeeker]

Not a single one of these scriptures say that mankind was created for His glory.

LOL! The very reason we are to glorify God, 2timoth316, is because he created everything for His glory. And the result of that -- if we do glorify God -- is that we receive salvation, eternal life in Christ

Oh well. Yes, that's what I expected you to say. You're welcome to your opinion. Grace and peace to you.

See your doctrine puts man's sins on God.

No, your erroneous take attributes sinfulness that only belongs to man to God.

People don't do much other than to serve themselves, you're projecting this flaw on the Almighty.

No, you are. You don't mean to be, but you are. That's precisely my point (one of them anyway).

While God's glory is in creation, there is no scripture that says that Jehovah God created man to satisfy His want for glory.

But that's not what I'm saying, 2timothy316. God never "wanted" for anything. He had exactly what He wanted/needed from all eternity. That He chose to create the universe and everything in it is precisely because He desired to share it, for the good and even enjoyment and satisfaction of those He created.

You keep saying, "You think God creating man and all things for His own glory is merely self-serving and loveless... in a selfish, sinful sense. That's surely not the case." and you're right.

Well, I don't "keep saying that," bur rather, I only said that in the last post, because I was answering your objection, 2timothy316, the objection you made.

...but you keep saying that He created man for His glory which is wrong.

Nope. Not wrong. Absolutely right. God clearly says it in Scripture, over and over and over again, throughout. I know, you disagree. Well, okay.

1 john 4:8 says, "God is love". not God is glory.

Yes, but because God shares His glory with His creation, He is love -- among other things.

To do something for one's own glory is self-serving.

I agree. Again, Exodus 20:3, the very first Commandment -- and there is very good reason why it is before every other commandment ("You shall have no other gods before me"), Isaiah 42:8 ("I am the LORD; that is my name; My glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols") and Romans 11:36 i("...from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever.") are crystal clear. Everything that is made is for His glory. But that's not the whole story, although you seem to want to stop there. Our salvation, our good, our enjoyment, our satisfaction, even our glory -- our very lives, even eternal life -- is wrapped up in His glory. So it is not merely self-serving, but loving.

You keep trying but it's not scriptural.

Well, again, I get that you don't think so, but that is merely your opinion. It is Scriptural. It's what the Bible is about.

Which is a more important quality in Jehovah? His love or His glory?

Ah, now this is a good question. But again, it's not an either-or thing, but rather both-and. To be love is to share one's glory. And for God to desire and seek after His own glory is to be loving.

What drives Him to do anything is love.

Yes, I absolutely agree! Perfect love is His nature. Sure!

Even to glorify Himself to His creation is so that others will see that His love is our best option.

Hmmm... don't completely disagree with this, but the way I would say it is, He glorifies Himself in His creation so that man will see that his glory (and enjoyment and satisfaction) is in his Creator and His glory. Some deny this in unrighteousness, as Romans 1 says, but that's beside the point. God created everything for His own glory, and in so doing, gives man the opportunity to share fully in that glory -- because, as John 3:16 says -- He so loved the world.

Glory has it's place and the doctrine you put forth for God reason for creating mankind keeps putting it in the wrong place.

And I would say, as I have said, that your "doctrine" inadvertently attributes human sinfulness -- selfishness, pride, etc. -- to God.

People can either humbly accept that God is love and this determines everything He does or they can pridefully reject it and say that He is more concerned with His own glory.

The fact is that He has glory far greater than we can even imagine, and He created everything to proclaim that glory AND to share that glory with His created beings (us).

If they do, then they reject 1 John 4:8 and John 3:16.

Nope. People who understand it as you do inadvertently put the cart before the horse. And they actually underestimate His love, and his amazing grace... they sell Him short, actually. Inadvertently, as I said, but they do.

Grace and peace to you.

[Dimmesdale]

I know there are a wide variety of beliefs in this forum, encompassing any imaginable range of ideologies of who and what God is.

But I am curious, what, do you believe, is the purpose for the creation of mankind?

Why did God create Him?
What is the purpose of his existence on this Earth at this time?
What do you believe is the role of mankind in the resurrection?
And what do you believe, at his "change" that he will be changed to?
And what do you believe is the criteria to attain that resurrection?
What will prevent him from receiving his reward?
What do you base your beliefs, regarding mankind, on?

Soj

In some ways, this can be over-thought. In some ways it is very easy to define man, because man is meant to be happy and serve God with love. Love and happiness are simple concepts, at bottom. Man is meant to be who he is, and do what he does best - exist in perfect harmony with God, nature and his brothers. The "How" may be complicated, but not the "What." The "What" is very easy - Life itself.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #39]

In some ways, this can be over-thought. In some ways it is very easy to define man, because man is meant to be happy and serve God with love. Love and happiness are simple concepts, at bottom. Man is meant to be who he is, and do what he does best - exist in perfect harmony with God, nature and his brothers. The "How" may be complicated, but not the "What." The "What" is very easy - Life itself.

Over-thought?

By us humans, yes. Our thoughts on many things are seldom likely to be the same as God's thoughts. These are in the Bible. Such as this, on thoughts and ways:

Isaiah 55:

7 Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and He will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways My ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are My ways higher than your ways
and My thoughts than your thoughts".

And these, on "what is man?":

Psalm 8:

3 When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

4 what is man, that You are mindful of him,
and the son of man, that You care for him?

5 Yet You have made him a little lower than the angels,
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have given him dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,

Psalm 144:

3 O LORD, what is man that You regard him,
or the son of man that You think of him?
4 Man is like a breath;
his days are like a passing shadow.

And finally, this, on "life itself:

James 4:

13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.”

14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.”

Easy, simple, or complicated?

Grace and peace to you.