Is Jesus a created being?

[Wootah]

Colossians 1:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-16.htm

So Jesus is uncreated yeah?

[Revelations won]

Dear isaiasan098,

Thank you for your response. I agree in part with your take as quoted below:


“First, you mention the Bible of Jehovah's Witnesses, in this the word "other" has been added, in the original Greek manuscripts the word "other" did not appear, therefore, the Apostle Paul really said that Christ is before ALL THINGS, not before all other things, secondly, Christ is the first of all things, because He is the Lord, owner and Maker of everything Created, that is why I say that He occupies the supremacy in all things, being THE FIRST OF ALL THINGS. Remember that even God is called "The Beginning" and this does not mean that God had a beginning, nor that God existed from a moment and then everything was made, it means that God is The Beginning, the Origin, by which it was all done, therefore your (yours) guesses are wrong. Christ is called "the firstborn of all creation", this means that Christ is the Lord of all creation, the one who has the supremacy in all creation, not that he was the first created, in fact, if you read more Go ahead see how the Apostle Paul says "... so that in everything he may have supremacy." (Referring to Christ), therefore, both the expression "Firstborn of all creation" and "Firstborn of the dead" do not denote any temporal order, but rather the hierarchical position to which Christ belongs, not that He was "the first created "but He is before all things, and in Him all things subsist, He is the first, the most important, the Supreme, the Chief, the Owner, the one who maintains all creation, through whom all was made. This would explain a little more those expressions that the JW frequently use to "prove" (in quotes) that Christ was created.”

My response is that Christ indeed is: “the first Born Spirit Son of God”
And that He indeed organized or created this earth and all things pertaining thereto under the direction of God the Father.

I think it is very self evident that he always proclaimed his divine sonship and obedience to his Fathers will. The very clear fact he so testified that he only did the things that he saw his father do, further identifies his position as God the Son.

As he so amply testified clearly that he came not to do not his will, but his father’s will is also self evident.

As pointed out in:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

His first coming was as our exemplar or illustrator of the laws of God.
And to provide the atonement and resurrection for all mankind.

I would submit that according to:

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

In other words it appears self evident that according to the Scriptures
He also grew from grace to grace and was refined by the things which he suffered, “And being made perfect,” he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Paul in speaking to the Romans clearly taught that Christ was the first born among many brethren.:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



Hebrews 1:
6 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

John 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Here is some serious food for thought that all should ponder and consider, ponder and meditate upon:

“Have you ever duly noticed and observed that in all of the New Testament that ALL communication from Heaven was strictly from God the Father? Nowhere can it be found of any communication from heaven by Jehovah.

Why is this so?

I refer you to my topic “Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament”. Indeed, Jesus Christ is indeed the very Immanuel, or “GOD WITH US” as so testified in the scriptures.

If anyone can prove by the scriptures to the above referenced topic I would welcome your responses.

As I said in my last post on that topic:

“ I submit that the above scriptural evidence clearly reaffirms beyond question, Christ’s identity as also being the great Jehovah and creator and savior!

For anyone to argue to the contrary, one must therefore introduce a major dilemma of two (2) creators and two (2) Saviors!

I challenge the JW’s or Any one else who can refute each and every scripture I have used as evidence, to prove that Christ is not the great Jehovah, please feel free to present your debate showing that all the scriptures I have used to be false or wrong. I do not need philosophical or private interpretations. Please provide other scriptures to prove an opposing view.

Kind regards,
RW

[Eloi]

I challenge the JW’s or Any one else who can refute each and every scripture I have used as evidence, to prove that Christ is not the great Jehovah, please feel free to present your debate showing that all the scriptures I have used to be false or wrong. I do not need philosophical or private interpretations. Please provide other scriptures to prove an opposing view.

Kind regards,
RW

Five months ago you posted in the forum just the same "challenge". 20 minutes later, I gave you the answer ... and I wonder how many more times you need the same answer to stop asking the same question:

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah:

Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations agitated
And the peoples muttering an empty thing?
 2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And high officials gather together as one
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

Acts 4:24 On hearing this, they raised their voices with one accord to God and said:
“Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them, 25 and who said through holy spirit by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant: ‘Why did nations become agitated and peoples meditate on empty things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ 27 For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 to do what your hand and counsel had determined beforehand to occur.

2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised:

Deut.18:14 “For these nations that you are dispossessing used to listen to those practicing magic and divination, but Jehovah your God has not allowed you to do anything like this. 15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer.
19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him:

Psalm 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Ephes.1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek:

Psalm 110:4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever
In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; he said to me: “ (...) 8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession."

Heb.1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father. ... "

Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.”

My biblical references are updated.

[IAMinyou]

Colossians 1:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-16.htm

So Jesus is uncreated yeah?

Jesus is just a name of a human being FORMED in the womb of another FORMED human being. It's the information known as the Word of God that was spoken through the mouth of that human being after that human being got to be old enough for our CREATOR to use for HIS purpose to help ME understand exactly what I AM as HIS IMAGE.

[Overcomer]

eloi wrote:

If Christ had not been created, then he could not be "first in all things."

Col. 1:17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him

Bible NEVER says Jesus was creator.

isaiasan098 wrote:

Christ is the first of all things, because He is the Lord, owner and Maker of everything Created, that is why I say that He occupies the supremacy in all things, being THE FIRST OF ALL THINGS. Remember that even God is called "The Beginning" and this does not mean that God had a beginning, nor that God existed from a moment and then everything was made, it means that God is The Beginning, the Origin, by which it was all done, therefore your (yours) guesses are wrong. Christ is called "the firstborn of all creation", this means that Christ is the Lord of all creation, the one who has the supremacy in all creation, not that he was the first created, in fact, if you read more Go ahead see how the Apostle Paul says "... so that in everything he may have supremacy." (Referring to Christ), therefore, both the expression "Firstborn of all creation" and "Firstborn of the dead" do not denote any temporal order, but rather the hierarchical position to which Christ belongs, not that He was "the first created "but He is before all things, and in Him all things subsist, He is the first, the most important, the Supreme, the Chief, the Owner, the one who maintains all creation, through whom all was made. This would explain a little more those expressions that the JW frequently use to "prove" (in quotes) that Christ was created.”

Yes! Exactly! It has to do with pre-eminence. It has NOTHING to do with being created and NOTHING to do with being the first created being. Consider this:

Paul had two choices when he wrote "first born" in Col. 1:15. The word for "first created" is "proto" paired with "ktizo". But that isn't what Paul wrote. He wrote "proto" with "tikto" and it means first born in the sense of first in importance. The Greek is clear about this.

Jesus called himself I AM, a name of God (Ex. 3:14) that speaks to his eternal existence as God (John 8:24). We know that Jesus was saying he was God because of the reaction of the Pharisees. They wanted to stone him to death for blasphemy, blasphemy being defined as someone claiming to be God and stoning being the penalty for that blasphemy.

[theQuestion]

Despite all such endless spin and mistranslations, it is clear to anyone who doesn't worship their church that Jesus is a "created/born" being, as we ALL are.

God is NO ONE'S son, firstborn, beginning of all God's creation, or only- begotten.
JESUS is.

Neither is God an apostle, high priest, angel, or lamb- JESUS is.