Is Jesus a created being?

[Wootah]

Colossians 1:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-16.htm

So Jesus is uncreated yeah?

[DavidLeon]

Jesus, aka Michael, was created by Jehovah God. Jesus existed in heaven before coming to earth. In the spirit form he created with God's holy spirit. Just as God spoke through the prophets God's word with holy spirit. Angels can take on human form. That's what Michael did, becoming the man Jesus. Jesus isn't God, Jesus is a god. Like Moses. God simply means mighty; venerated. Michael was the Word of God, meaning spokesperson or representative. Jesus wasn't the God with whom he was. That doesn't make sense.

Most translations read that the word was God because they want to preserve the traditional trinity doctrine which was incorporated by the apostate church in 325 CE with the pagan Emperor Constantine's politically motivated council of Nicaea.

John 1:1 - In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God (Literally "was toward the God." Greek en pros ton Theon; Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Franz Delitzsch, London, 1981 ed., Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Isaac Salkinson and C. D. Ginsburg, London. the Hebrew, hayah eth ha Elohim), and the Word was a god (Greek, theos, in contrast with ton Theon, "the God," in the same sentence; Hebrew, welohim, "and god.")

The Greek word theos is a singular predicate noun occurring before the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous theos. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated here by the Greek expression ho theos, that is, theos preceded by the definite article ho. This is an articular theos. The articular construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb points to a quality about someone. John was saying that the Word or Logos was "a god" or "divine" or "godlike" rather than that he was the God with whom he was.

There are many cases of a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb, such as in Mark 6:49; 11:32; John 4:19; 6:70; 8:44; 9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6. Where "a" or "an" is inserted "an appatition" or "a spirit" or "a liar" or "a prophet" or "a god."

In the article "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," published in the Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92, Philadelphia, 1973, p. 85, Philip B. Harner said about John 1:1: "with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos. There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite." On p. 87 of his article, Harner concluded: "In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite."

In other words Jesus was a god, which is completely in harmony with scripture. Jesus was prophetically called a mighty god (Hebrew El Gibbohr) at Isaiah 9:6.

[myth-one.com]

There are natural bodies and there are spiritual bodies.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

A man who becomes a father is still a man. A man who becomes a deputy is still a man.

A man who becomes whatever is still a man.

This is true.

But note that man has limits as to what he can make himself. Being mortal, man cannot make himself immortal. -- for example.

So let us apply your reasoning to John 1:14.

The Word who becomes a man is still the word.

If that is the case, then that man cannot die.

And death is the reason the Word became a man in the first place:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

It's a "catch 22."

Is Jesus a created being?

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

Create = to make.

The answer is yes, Jesus was created or made.

I am ever more confused. In the first half of your post you seem to accept the plain sense meaning of saying that "a man who becomes whatever is still a man." But now, without any explanation as to why, you reject the plain sense meaning of saying that "the Word was made flesh" would still be the Word. Can you explain this inconsistency?

I really cannot.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (I Corinthians 15:40)

Man can understand things in our world -- the physical or terrestrial world.

I cannot understand how The Word was made into the man Jesus.

Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for his thirty-three years on earth. The Word could not die as a spirit! He was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death! That was the only change required for Him to become a human being! That is, His spiritual body could not die as it is immortal. He had to become a physical human body so that He could die for our sins.

During it all, both were alive. I don't understand how that works.

Something mortal can gain immortality.

But something immortal cannot gain mortality -- by definition of immortal.

Man will not understand this mystery until we enter the spiritual world of the Kingdom of God.
During Jesus' physical life, the Word still existed -- being immortal.

What is clear is that Jesus was born with inside information.

[DavidLeon]

I cannot understand how The Word was made into the man Jesus.

Both Jesus Christ and man were made "a little lower than the angels." However, we are given the one, and only one, reason that Jesus was made lower than the angels for his thirty-three years on earth. The Word could not die as a spirit! He was made lower than the angels so that he could suffer death! That was the only change required for Him to become a human being! That is, His spiritual body could not die as it is immortal. He had to become a physical human body so that He could die for our sins.

During it all, both were alive. I don't understand how that works.

Something mortal can gain immortality.

But something immortal cannot gain mortality -- by definition of immortal.

Man will not understand this mystery until we enter the spiritual world of the Kingdom of God.
During Jesus' physical life, the Word still existed -- being immortal.

What is clear is that Jesus was born with inside information.

First of all you are reading too much in the Greek logos, meaning word. Jesus speaks on behalf of God. That is all the word word means here. Secondly, spirit beings that were created by God, or as we commonly refer to them, angels can take physical form. You see this throughout the Bible. The word spirit means invisible (to us) but producing results. The words translated angels mean messenger. If the word is applied to men the word messenger is used, if it is applied to spirit creatures the word angel is used. Thirdly, spirit creatures are not immortal in the sense that they can't be destroyed. Satan and his angels are spirit creatures which will suffer everlasting destruction.

[myth-one.com]

First of all you are reading too much in the Greek logos, meaning word. Jesus speaks on behalf of God. That is all the word word means here.

Jesus spoke on behalf of God about 12 years after His physical birth. Not from the beginning.

Thirdly, spirit creatures are not immortal in the sense that they can't be destroyed. Satan and his angels are spirit creatures which will suffer everlasting destruction.

According to the Bible, Satan will be tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone -- not destroyed.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Man was expelled from the Garden of Eden so that he could not eat from the tree of life and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God, Jesus stated:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Actually, both testaments of the Bible are about how mankind can gain everlasting life.

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to have no sin imputed against him or her.

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must accept Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

And once accepted, their is no exit door out of immortality.

So it should be considered with some caution.

[DavidLeon]

Jesus spoke on behalf of God about 12 years after His physical birth. Not from the beginning.

Jesus, as Michael, spoke on behalf of God thousands of years before Jesus the man existed.

According to the Bible, Satan will be tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone -- not destroyed.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The lake of fire is symbolic for everlasting destruction. Death is thrown there. Death is a literal thing you can't throw. Symbolic for the end of death. Likewise, hell, the grave, is thrown there. No need for graves if there is no more death. Sin equals death. Jesus takes away sin. Death is no more. Can you literally torment death and hell? No. Torment means distress. Jailers are listed as tormentors in the Bible. The distress isn't literal. Like someone cautioning against something that will get you killed will say: "You'll be sorry." Not literally sorry because you're dead.

Man was expelled from the Garden of Eden so that he could not eat from the tree of life and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God, Jesus stated:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Actually, both testaments of the Bible are about how mankind can gain everlasting life.

Under the Old Testament Covenant, one had to have no sin imputed against him or her.

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must accept Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

And once accepted, their is no exit door out of immortality.

So it should be considered with some caution.

I'll keep that in mind. You say spirits live forever, and I agree that they can but they can also be destroyed. Man, who is flesh and blood, that is Adam, was meant to live forever. Sin equals death. The meek will inherit the earth and live forever upon it. So the taking away the tree of life is a temporary arrangement, correct?

[myth-one.com]

Jesus, as Michael, spoke on behalf of God thousands of years before Jesus the man existed.

Then Michael spoke on behalf of God.

The lake of fire is real. It is where those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast after the judgment. They quickly perish -- never to live or exist again. It is called the "second death."

The first death is appointed to all mankind, including Jesus. Once Jesus was born as a man, He had no choice in His first death. Thus His death saved no one.

After the last human nonbeliever is cast into the lake of fire, there is no more death, as there are no more humans.

Yes, since there are no more deaths -- there is no longer any need for graves. So both have been destroyed.

Sin equals death. Jesus takes away sin. Death is no more.

Under the New Testament Covenant, sin no longer affects our salvation. Salvation is a gift, not something earned by fulfilling all of God's laws.

You say spirits live forever, and I agree that they can but they can also be destroyed.

They can be punished and their powers taken away, but they live forever.

Define what you mean by "destroyed."

Man, who is flesh and blood, that is Adam, was meant to live forever.

If God created Adam to live forever, then Adam would still be alive.

The meek will inherit the earth and live forever upon it. So the taking away the tree of life is a temporary arrangement, correct?

Correct, believers will be given access once again to the Tree of Life.

====================================

Angels can take on human form. That's what Michael did, becoming the man Jesus. Jesus isn't God, Jesus is a god.

The two testaments of the Bible contain covenants between mankind and God the Father.

If Jesus is a god, then the story line of the Bible immediately falls to pieces -- because gods are not involved or beholden to either of those covenants.

Jesus was a man who fell under coverage of the original covenant between man and God. He lived a sinless life and became the first and only inheritor of everlasting life under that covenant by never sinning. The wages of sin is death, but He never sinned, therefore He is due to inherit everlasting life under the first covenant when it is probated.

Jesus' reward is His to do with as He pleases. So He offers it to any other human who will accept Him as their Savior. Thus salvation from the wages of sin is now a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

Here is the biblical justification for creation of a new and better covenant:

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[Wootah]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #11]

Did the heavens exist before Jesus?

[Sojournerofthearth]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #11]

DavidLeon wrote:
Jesus, aka Michael, was created by Jehovah God.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:5-8 KJV)

According to the Bible, if one is so inclined...

Soj

[gadfly]

Colossians 1:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-16.htm

So Jesus is uncreated yeah?

First, some distinctions in terminology are in order.

Theologians and Biblical scholars take the term "Jesus" to refer specifically to the incarnate 2nd Person of the Trinity. Thus, yes, in one sense, Jesus was created. They also take the terms "the Word" (from John) and "the Christ" and "Lord" (in Paul) as referring to the preexistent and uncreated 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Second, the text above (Colossians) can be divided into two parts, with the transitional point being "He is the head of the...church." Before this, the author (Paul?) is referring to Christ's role as the medium through which the original creation was made. But at v. 18, with reference to the church (which for the author is not merely an institution, but tantamount to a new creation) he is referring to the historical, incarnate Jesus, whose resurrection issued in a new Genesis, a New Creation.

This text makes a distinction between the original creation and the new creation; it does not make a distinction between the Preexistent non-incarnate 2nd Person and the historical 2nd Person incarnate Jesus.

Hope that helps.

[Wootah]

[Replying to gadfly in post #19]

How did it help? Who did it help?