Why Jesus is God

[Wootah]

We all know that the non-Christian thinks they belong in heaven and God should accept them as they are.

Which is why we all see Jesus dying and rising on the cross as important in some way to our salvation.

But if Jesus is a man or angel then a created being can morally satisfy the law and so is morally equal to God.

Then

* It's just the basic idol worship of the self. It's just a repeat of the desire of Adam & Eve to become equal to God.

* If Jesus is not God then I am personally saying to God, 'that even though I am not righteous, you God, have to accept the righteousness of another man called Jesus on my behalf.'

* It's a demand for righteousness rather than graciously being given righteousness, just like our poor non-Christians.

But if Jesus is God then I am not claiming equality with God, I am demanding nothing. Instead, I am being undeservedly cloaked by God's righteousness.

Here is my challenge: How can you express your theology that you are saved by the work of a man or an angel that does not have within it the demand that God accept you into heaven?

In words, can you write down what you believe you are saying to God when you ask that you be saved by the righteousness of a man/angel/created being?

(I don't think you can and I think that when you see it, in your heart, you will know how you stand before God demanding he accept you and your sin.)

[tam]

Peace again to you!

Peace to you!

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

* If Jesus is not God then I am personally saying to God, 'that even though I am not righteous, you God, have to accept the righteousness of another man called Jesus on my behalf.'

Well, that's not true, Wootah.

God is the One who sent His Son so that we may have life and have forgiveness of sins in Him (Christ). This was God's will. We're not telling God what He has to accept. He is the One who sent His Son (thereby providing the sacrifice; the ransom for our lives).


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Just write down the words, maybe it is like this: God you sent your son to die for my sins so you have to accept his sacrifice.

That's what you are intended on saying as I understand it on judgement day. But maybe you have a clearer statement?

Why would I have a statement to make at all? (other than giving thanks at any time)



Peace again to you.

[Wootah]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #8]

Do you belong in heaven if it exists?

[DavidLeon]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #8]

Do you belong in heaven if it exists?

That's your response. Okay. No. I don't belong in heaven, which does exist.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #8]

Do you belong in heaven if it exists?

That's your response. Okay. No. I don't belong in heaven, which does exist.

Where do you belong, then, if anywhere?

Will that ever change?

[DavidLeon]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #8]

Do you belong in heaven if it exists?

That's your response. Okay. No. I don't belong in heaven, which does exist.

Where do you belong, then, if anywhere?

Will that ever change?

What kind of question is that, I wonder? I could say that I don't "belong" anywhere in particular, unless you are talking about where, as a created being do I belong in Jehovah God's arrangement. From a more secular perspective I don't belong anywhere in particular. In God's arrangement I belong on Earth and that is where I will always belong unless I belong in the figurative lake of fire, symbolic for everlasting destruction. In other words, dead.

I believe the Bible, not the nonsensical traditions of men. It says that flesh and blood doesn't belong in heaven. It says God created heaven for the angels and himself. He created earth for man. The meek will inherit what? I belong on earth, as does everyone except the 144, 000. If you are asking if I belong in heaven the answer is no. I wouldn't like heaven. Most people wouldn't. There is this religious tradition that heaven is more wonderful a place than you can possibly imagine. Nonsense. It isn't the kind of place any of God's material creation would want to be.

The reason heaven is thought of by most "Christians" as being as wonderful as they can possibly imagine is because greedy, selfish, Godless, power hungry men discovered that enough ignorant people had culturally adapted the teachings of Christ that they could transmogrify them into pagan teachings and acquire wealth and power for themselves by allowing themselves to be manipulated by the superstitious arrogance of their adherents. That was certainly nothing new, except for that they used Christ's teachings to revamp the pagan nonsense.

So from then on people either fooled themselves into believing, or labored under the illusion that they would go to heaven while their enemies, supposedly but quite realistically not morally inferior to them, would go to hell.

Heaven is a part of God's spiritual creation, not the product of the illusions of grandeur of mankind's limited imagination.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to DavidLeon in post #8]

Do you belong in heaven if it exists?

That's your response. Okay. No. I don't belong in heaven, which does exist.

Where do you belong, then, if anywhere?

Will that ever change?

What kind of question is that, I wonder? I could say that I don't "belong" anywhere in particular, unless you are talking about where, as a created being do I belong in Jehovah God's arrangement. From a more secular perspective I don't belong anywhere in particular. In God's arrangement I belong on Earth and that is where I will always belong unless I belong in the figurative lake of fire, symbolic for everlasting destruction. In other words, dead.

Wootah's question, I'm pretty sure, is asked with regard to the eternal perspective, not merely the temporal one. Which I think you understand. What you don't seem to understand here is what the figurative lake of fire really symbolizes, and what it really means -- from that eternal perspective -- to be subject to everlasting destruction and what it means to be dead.

I believe the Bible, not the nonsensical traditions of men.

Right on; me, too. I think all of us would say that, but whether it is really true for this or that individual is... debatable.

It says that flesh and blood doesn't belong in heaven.

Well, but what this means is, sin cannot be in heaven, and because those of mere flesh and blood are sinful, they cannot be in God's dwelling place, which at this point is still heaven.

It says God created heaven for the angels and himself. He created earth for man. The meek will inherit what?

The heavens were created along with the earth, as we read in Genesis 1:1. But this quite obviously means the physical universe. God did not create Heaven; heaven has always, from eternity past, been the place in which God dwells.

I belong on earth, as does everyone except the 144, 000.

Eeeeeeeeee-yeahhhhhh... About that 144,000... First, one simply cannot take a symbolic section of scripture and interpret it in such a fashion as to make it contradict other clear, literal portions of the Bible. Second, any doctrine which logically implies an absurdity is false and must be rejected. The Watchtower theory regarding the 144,000 violates both of these principles. The 144,000 are referred to in Revelation 7 and 14:

REVELATION 7
If one argues that the 144,000 represents a literal number:

• he should similarly contend that the group of which that number consists is also literal, i.e., literal Israelites. That would mean, according to the Watchtower scheme of interpretation, that no one would be in heaven who was not of the actual tribes listed. This would also exclude Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- who were never of the tribes of Israel. And yet, that conflicts with Jesus’ affirmation that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 8:11).

• he should similarly contend that not one Gentile has the hope of the kingdom of heaven. However, the Lord was plainly alluding to Gentiles when he stated, “...many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew. 8:11).

• he should similarly contend that not a person from either Ephraim or Dan will enter heaven, for they are excluded from the list. This would mean that Old Testament heroes like Joshua (from Ephraim) and Samson (from Dan) will not be in heaven. The fact is, mention of the “tribe of Joseph” (7:8), which was not a tribe at all in a literal sense, is evidence of the symbolism of this context.

• he should also contend for the exclusion of the “great multitude, which no man could number” (7:9) from heaven. This group allegedly represents the “earthly class.” But this multitude is described as “standing before the throne” (7:9), which is in heaven (1:4; 4:2-10). Furthermore, these saints “before the throne” were serving God in “his temple” (7:15). Elsewhere John comments that “the temple of God ... is in heaven” (11:19).

All of the aforementioned "contentions" would be quite silly.

REVELATION 14
Once more, however, the numeral is clustered with several other prominent symbols.

• First, there is the “Lamb,” a figure representing Christ (cf. Jn. 1:29; Rev. 5:6).

• Second, there is Mount Zion, a symbol of divine government (cf. Isa. 2:2-4).

• Third, there is the numeral 144,000, suggestive of the heavenly complement of God’s people -- no one will be missing who is supposed to be there.

• Fourth, the saints are depicted as “virgins,” which descriptive emphasizes their purity (cf. 2 Cor. 11:2).

Again, though, it must be stressed that if one contends for a literal 144,000, if consistent, he should argue also that a literal Lamb was literally standing on literal Mount Zion with a group of literal men who had never been intimate with literal women, hence, were literal virgins. If a consistent literal scheme of interpretation is pursued, here is the situation that would obtain: Only men will be in heaven, hence, Hannah, Mary, Dorcus, and women of like faith are without that hope. Only unmarried men who are virgins will gain heaven. This would exclude Abraham, Moses, Peter, and a host of other biblical worthies. These conclusions are utterly ludicrous and thus without any merit whatever.

So, rather, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14 signifies the entire body of the redeemed. This group represents a body of people who were “purchased” from among men. The only purchase price ultimately available for human salvation is that of the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood was effective for the obedient who lived before the cross (Gal. 4:5; Heb. 9:15-17), and for those who have submitted to God’s will since that historic event (1 Pet. 1:18,19; Acts 20:28).

If you are asking if I belong in heaven the answer is no.

I think Wootah would say, "Well, right now, because you still sin, that's true." As would I, but he can answer for himself, for sure. I think he would also say, "But in eternity? it depends if you are in Christ or not." Again, as would I, but he can answer that for himself, too.

I wouldn't like heaven. Most people wouldn't. There is this religious tradition that heaven is more wonderful a place than you can possibly imagine. Nonsense. It isn't the kind of place any of God's material creation would want to be.

Well, so then you don't believe Revelation 21:1-4? Which says (emphasis mine):
.

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

.
There is no shadow of doubt, that when Jesus returns, earth and heaven will be one. God will dwell with all of us, not with 144,000 individuals somewhere besides where we are. In verse 4, "the former things have passed away" should not be understood as putting the earth out of existence, but rather wiping out all that is evil and cleansing it, as it were, by fire and thereby fitting it for an age of glory. And when this happens, the earth will be made new and new Jerusalem will come down and God will dwell with us. And righteousness and peace, from that time forward, will never end. The earth and heaven will be one.

The reason heaven is thought of by most "Christians" as being as wonderful as they can possibly imagine is because greedy, selfish, Godless, power hungry men discovered that enough ignorant people had culturally adapted the teachings of Christ that they could transmogrify them into pagan teachings and acquire wealth and power for themselves by allowing themselves to be manipulated by the superstitious arrogance of their adherents. That was certainly nothing new, except for that they used Christ's teachings to revamp the pagan nonsense.

An earth without sin, in which there is no more sorrow, no more death, no more mourning, no more figurative or literal pain -- that is one with heaven -- is more wonderful than anyone can possibly imagine. I mean, we can get it, merely from an intellectual standpoint, because we're not idiots. But really imagining it is another thing altogether and at this point is just not possible.

Heaven is a part of God's spiritual creation, not the product of the illusions of grandeur of mankind's limited imagination.

Again, God always had a dwelling place, and always will. The heavens were created along with the earth, as we read in Genesis 1:1. But this quite obviously means the physical universe. But I do agree with you on the limited imagination, for sure.

Grace and peace to you, DavidLeon.

[Eloi]

As we learn from history, Jews did not accept Jesus because he was not what they believed he would be. Modern Christendom seems to want to make Jesus something that he himself is not, and never claimed to be.

I have always thought of Christendom as a later version of unfaithful Judaism: the former say that the Hebrew Scriptures belong to them; the latter seem to think the same about the Greek Scriptures; the former annulled the Scriptures themselves by their traditions; the seconds too. The former did not accept the Son, the latter have ignored the Father. Anyway, neither one nor the other has served Jehovah through His Son Jesus.

[Eloi]

The number 144000 is literal for the following biblical reasons:

1) it is mentioned more than once in Apocalipsis referring to the same group (Apoc. 7: 4; 14: 1,3)

2) the Bible describes it as "the number of those who were sealed" (Gr .: τον αριθμον των εσφραγισμενων) in Apoc. 7: 4;

3) it is indicated that it is a definite and well-determined number, in contrast to the other group of an indefinite quantity of persons, the "great crowd" (Apoc. 7: 4-10);

4) in Apoc.14: 4 it is said that they "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits", and that implies that it is a limited selection or quantity, like it happens with the expression "little flock" in Luke 12:32;

5) only this group is considered as "priests and kings". It is incongruous to think that out of the whole people serving God, all of them are kings or all of them are priests, since these services are performed by a minority over a majority;

6) when in Apoc. 6:11 the already dead are told that they should wait a little longer, they are told how long: "until the number was filled (gr .: πληρωθωσιν which is to reach a fullness or become complete) of their fellow slaves and their brothers ".

7) Apoc. 14:3 says that no one except the 144,000, "was able to master" the song they sing before the throne of God.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Where do you want to end up? Surely that is your 'heaven'?

Wanting has nothing to do with my future state after I die. With no reason to believe in any kind of conscious state after death I can only conclude there is none. The default position, as it were.


.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

Where do you want to end up? Surely that is your 'heaven'?

Wanting has nothing to do with my future state after I die. With no reason to believe in any kind of conscious state after death I can only conclude there is none. The default position, as it were.


.

It's just hypothetical for you. So why not just answer? To be honest, heaven is what we aim for, what we work towards. What does it look like to you? That is your heaven, is all I am saying.