"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Miles
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"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

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The disciple whom Jesus loved is referred to, specifically, six times in the book of John.


John 13:23-25
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

__________________________

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

__________________________

John 20:1-2

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

__________________________

John 21: 7
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was
naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

__________________________

John 21: 20-23
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

__________________________

John 21: 24
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


As for which disciple Jesus was in love with, in the Wikipdia article: "Disciple whom Jesus loved"; the main candidate is none other than John himself

"Some scholars have additionally suggested a homoerotic interpretation of Christ's relationship with the Beloved Disciple, although such a scriptural reading is disputed . . . . Tilborg suggests that the portrait in the Gospel of John is "positively attuned to the development of possibly homosexual behaviour". . . .

The relationship between Christ and John was certainly interpreted by some as being of a physical erotic nature as early as the 16th century (albeit in a "heretical" context) - documented, for example, in the trial for blasphemy of Christopher Marlowe, who was accused of claiming that "St. John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ and leaned always in his bosom, that he used him as the sinners of Sodoma". In accusing Marlowe of the "sinful nature" of homosexual acts, James I of England inevitably invited comparisons to his own erotic relationship with the Duke of Buckingham which he also compared to that of the Beloved Disciple. Finally, Francesco Calcagno, a friar of Venicefaced trial and was executed in 1550 for claiming that "St. John was Christ's catamite".

Dynes also makes a link to the modern day where in 1970s New York a popular religious group was established called the "Church of the Beloved Disciple", with the intention of giving a positive reading of the relationship to support respect for same-sex love."


However, based on John 11:5: "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus", and John 11:3 "Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." some scholars feel Lazarus of Bethany is a better candidate,

Others, through a bit of tap dancing, have proposed that the beloved disciple was originally Mary Magdalene

Or, Jesus's beloved disciple may have been "a priestly member of a quasimonastic, mystical, and ascetic Jewish aristocracy, located on Jerusalem's prestigious southwest hill, who had hosted Jesus' last supper in that location"

Whatever the case, none of these scholars seem to have denied a homosexual connection with the Beloved Disciple. Even today there are those who believe Jesus was gay.




"Was Jesus gay? Probably"
.............by Paul Oestreicher

I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply it had to be addressed.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi. Unusually, he was unmarried. The idea that he had a romantic relationship with Mary Magdalene is the stuff of fiction, based on no biblical evidence. The evidence, on the other hand, that he may have been what we today call gay is very strong. But even gay rights campaigners in the church have been reluctant to suggest it. A significant exception was Hugh Montefiore, bishop of Birmingham and a convert from a prominent Jewish family. He dared to suggest that possibility and was met with disdain, as though he were simply out to shock.

After much reflection and with certainly no wish to shock, I felt I was left with no option but to suggest, for the first time in half a century of my Anglican priesthood, that Jesus may well have been homosexual. Had he been devoid of sexuality, he would not have been truly human. To believe that would be heretical.
source


SO, what do you, members of Debating Christianity and Religion, think? Jesus: likely gay or not?


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Overcomer »

Given that God condemned homosexuality as a sin and that Jesus was God Incarnate, then no, there's no way that Jesus was gay.

The Old Testament states, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable” (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13). The New Testament agrees, listing “homosexual offenders” among a list of people who “will not inherit the kingdom of God” unless they are cleansed through Christ (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

The idea that Jesus might be gay because John leaned against him is a case of not understanding the culture and the time period in which this took place. Here's how J. P. Holding puts it:

To put it bluntly, such arguments view intimate relationships through jaundiced Western eyes. Put your head on the breast of another man today here in America, and the jokes will fly. But in the ancient East, not so; and even today, such affectionate displays are typical on that side of the world, and well-publicized (remember all the news clips of Arab and Middle Eastern leaders kissing each other on the side of the face?), which is probably why we don't hear these sorts of verses brought up in service of homosexual Bible characters, except by the incredibly underinformed.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/gayjesus.php

In that culture and that time period, that kind of physical intimacy between men was normal and acceptable and NOT an indication of one's sexual proclivity. This is why studying the culture of Biblical times is important. It prevents readers from leaping to unjustified and sometimes downright silly conclusions as they view the people and events in the Bible through 21st-century eyes and mores.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Overcomer wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:57 pm Given that God condemned homosexuality as a sin and that Jesus was God Incarnate, then no, there's no way that Jesus was gay.
God only condemned homosexual sex, not homosexuality; the attraction to someone of the same sex. Obviously, Jesus was very attracted to the disciple he loved. And so much so that John saw fit to reference it six times. That Jesus and John, or whomever, never had sexual relations is not impossible, as unlikely as it may seem. The two could have done everything two gays could do, even being intimate, but stopping short of "lying with a man as one lies with a woman; which is detestable." Thus keeping god's command.

Overcomer wrote: The Old Testament states, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable” (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13). The New Testament agrees, listing “homosexual offenders” among a list of people who “will not inherit the kingdom of God” unless they are cleansed through Christ (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
yup.

Overcomer wrote: The idea that Jesus might be gay because John leaned against him is a case of not understanding the culture and the time period in which this took place.
But both of us know it had to be more than that, now don't we. John's repeated refrain of "the disciple whom Jesus loved" indicates an exclusive love Jesus shared with no other, and a love very much worth mentioning again and again. So it had to be a very special love.


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Last edited by Miles on Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #4

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

You wrote:
The disciple whom Jesus loved is referred to, specifically, six times in the book of John.
The last of these makes it more clear who he was and where his heart was.
John 21:
19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)
21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”
23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Jesus loved John, yes, but he was not "in love with" him; nor was it vlsa-versa.

But in any case, you are repeating a rumor, much as in the example quoted, of how Jesus said something to Peter, which was then misunderstood and misused, and had spread.

I suggest we be done with all such speculation, by taking seriously the corrective question Jesus asked, and the commandment he then added to it:

"What is that to you? You must follow me".

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:36 am Jesus loved John, yes, but he was not "in love with" him;
Your evidence please, because as it stands the six reinforcing references imply otherwise.
Checkpoint wrote: nor was it vlsa-versa.
Unless you have chapter and verse attesting to the fact, there's no reason to even consider your claim.

Checkpoint wrote:
But in any case, you are repeating a rumor, much as in the example quoted, of how Jesus said something to Peter, which was then misunderstood and misused, and had spread.
When an issue is seriously taken up by biblical scholars and investigators it ceases to be rumor and becomes an issue worthy of consideration (see my source: the Wikipedia article: "Disciple whom Jesus loved")

Checkpoint wrote:
I suggest we be done with all such speculation,
Of course you would. Anything else you'd like to sweep under the carpet, like god condoning slavery perhaps?

Checkpoint wrote:
by taking seriously the corrective question Jesus asked, and the commandment he then added to it:

"What is that to you? You must follow me".
Which doesn't correct a thing regarding Jesus's great love for the disciple.


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Two questions for you

#1 Do you hold that the word "love" is synonymous with sexual attraction?
#2 Do you agree most fathers "love" their baby daughters?




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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by earl »

I will categorize the Paul O. statement above in the OP as narrow mindedness.
Consider this ,another Bible verse and how someone can squeeze from it immoral ideas.Mt.19.13 "and he laid his hands on them"(little children).The popular saying is Jesus loves little children is another stretch of the imagination.
How suggestive is that to sell to an audience?
Does anyone consider no emphasis on John for being self admiring or conceited or the fact John was known as the apostle of love?
In fact John uses love 54 times loved 30 times,loveth 18 times in all more than any of his associates in the NT.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:16 am Two questions for you

#1 Do you hold that the word "love" is synonymous with sexual attraction?
#2 Do you agree most fathers "love" their baby daughters?
A rather childish point you're trying to make, don't you think.


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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:16 am Two questions for you

#1 Do you hold that the word "love" is synonymous with sexual attraction?
#2 Do you agree most fathers "love" their baby daughters?
A rather childish point you're trying to make, don't you think.


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And what point is that? Do you care to articulate "the point" you draw from my questions in a full sentence? It was you (not I) that drew attention to the English word "love" in a discussion about SEXUAL attraction, so my questions are, I think most relevant.

Of course if the answers make you feel uncomfortable or you would rather not respond I (and anyone else reading this thread) will understand.


Have a nice day whatever you decide,



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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

earl wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:52 am
Consider this ,another Bible verse and how someone can squeeze from it immoral ideas.Mt.19.13 "and he laid his hands on them"(little children).The popular saying is Jesus loves little children is another stretch of the imagination.
How suggestive is that to sell to an audience?
Does anyone consider no emphasis on John for being self admiring or conceited or the fact John was known as the apostle of love?
In fact John uses love 54 times loved 30 times,loveth 18 times in all more than any of his associates in the NT.
But it isn't just "another Bible verse," but six of them, and all saying the same thing.

There existed a . . .

"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"
"disciple whom Jesus loved"


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Last edited by Miles on Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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