Who is the first and the last?

[Wootah]

Isaiah 44 Besides Me There Is No God
6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it.[a]
Let him declare and set it before me,
since I appointed an ancient people.
Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
8 Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.”

Pretty clearly the first and the last is God.

In Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."

Who is speaking in Revelation 1:17?

[JehovahsWitness]

The first and the last of Revelation 1:17 is Jesus. We know this because the speaker goes on to say of himself "I became dead" but Almighy God cannot die.

The first and the last of Rev 22:12-15 (and Isaiah 44:6-28) is JEHOVAH/ YHWH*.
viewtopic.php?p=864348#p864348

* We can deduce this because obviously there are different speakers in Revelation Chapter 22. The challenge then is to deduce who is saying what. Verses v8-10 John identifies himself, v16:20 Jesus, but the speaker in between, namely v11-15, goes unidentified. With no modifiers to the titles we can reasonably assume THIS speaker is the "Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" in the absolute sense; which thus becomes only applicable go YHWH The Almighty.

JW


Further reading : SFBT
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogs ... ation.html






Who is the speaker if Revelation 22:12?

Onewithim
viewtopic.php?p=864572#p864572
tigger2
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p993258

RELATED POSTS

Can the same title be legitimately applied to BOTH Jesus and YHWH?
viewtopic.php?p=864252#p864252

Who does the title LORD apply to in ghe Christisn Greek scriptures?
viewtopic.php?p=867203#p867203

Why did Thomas declare Jesus to be his God?
viewtopic.php?p=979091#p979091

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

So can anyone say they are the first and the last and, in context, it can be correct?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

So can anyone say they are the first and the last and, in context, it can be correct?

That is correct: An only child can say they are "the first and last" in speaking about the offspring of their parent for example. It implies being unique in some way but we are all unique in some way. Scripturally speaking there is no reason to assume the expression must be used exclusively of the Creator. So we must rely on contexts to indicate if that what is being refered to is something unique to Almighty God alone as is the case in Isaiah 44 which refers (in the original text) to the divine name (YHWH) and His supreme position as the True God.


JW

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #4]

Surely it the claim by God is to be before creation and after creation. To be the fundamental being of existence.

Surely this is a unique claim by God that no other thing can make?

Take your answer: God says I am the first and last, Jesus says I am the first and last, a frog says I am the first and the last. If we are making a truth claim then who is right? If you can't work out who is right in my example then who is wrong?

On the dismantling of language being proposed by your logic:

What is an example of a claim that only God can make?

So how do you know which claims of God are meaningful? Is this an example of a meaningless claim?

What about words? If you say you are the fastest and I say I am the fastest are we both right?

[Overcomer]

JW wrote:

An only child can say they are "the first and last" in speaking about the offspring of their parent for example.

I think you are committing the fallacy of equivocation here. When this statement is used of God in Isaiah and of Jesus in Revelation, it's speaking of their eternal existence. It's saying that these two persons of the Triune Godhead existed at the beginning and they always will exist. So your analogy with the statement made by an only child is completely changing the meaning of the statement. See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/alpha-and-omega.html

JW wrote:

The first and the last of Revelation 1:17 is Jesus. We know this because the speaker goes on to say of himself "I became dead" but Almighy God cannot die.

You're right. God can't die. But Jesus was both God AND man, and it was as a man, that he died.

If the description "the first and the last" applies to God in Isaiah and to Jesus in Revelation, then what does that say about God and Jesus?

[JehovahsWitness]

I think you are committing the fallacy of equivocation here.

I disagree

The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

The equivocation fallacy is a logical fallacy that involves alternating between different meanings of a word or phrase, in a way that renders the argument that contains them unsound. For example, the statement “I have the right to say whatever I want, so it’s right for me to do so” is fallacious, because the word “right” is used in two different senses: first, to refer to something that someone is entitled to, and second, to refer to something that is morally good.

source: https://effectiviology.com/equivocation/

I said that the expression "first and last" meant UNIQUE in some way. So an only child, being a couples the first child and the last child is "unique". Biblically Jesus was UNIQUE ("the first and the last)" in that he was the first human to die and be raised to immmorality and the last to be raised by Jehovah himself personally (all future resurrections being administered through Jesus). Jehovah (YHWH) is of course unique as He is the only uncreated being, the only true God occupying a unique position as the supreme ruler of the universe.

So in all of the applications I presented the same meaning ("unique") to the same expression (The first and the last). This cannot therefore justifiably be considered equivocation fallacy.



The fallacy of circular argument, known as petitio principii (“begging the question”), occurs when the premises presume, openly or covertly, the very conclusion that is to be demonstrated (example: “Gregory always votes wisely.” “But how do you know?” “Because he always votes Libertarian.”).[/quote]

FALLACIES
https://www.informationisbeautiful.net/ ... fallacies/





RELATED POSTS

What is "argumentum ad populum"?
viewtopic.php?p=1048524#p1048524

What is Ad hominem?
viewtopic.php?p=1068290#p1068290

What is circular reasoning [begging the question]?
viewtopic.php?p=1027604#p1027604

What is the fallacy of equivocation [first & last] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1020274#p1020274

What is the fallacy of special pleading ?
viewtopic.php?p=1072425#p1072425

What is the fallacy of the consequent?
viewtopic.php?p=1073114#p1073114

What is the fallacy of "false equivalence"?
viewtopic.php?p=1074577#p1074577

What is the fallacy of composition [true christian]?
viewtopic.php?p=1026784#p1026784

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOGIC , FALLACIES and ... EVIDENCE

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

I think I agree with JW this is not the fallacy of equivocation only because it is not only the fallacy of equivocation but worse than that - the way JW uses the phrase it is left without any meaning at all. All JW needs to do to demonstrate I am incorrect is to show how to misuse the phrase first and the last. To put this in another context JW is organising a running race and declaring everyone a winner for participating, making the word winner meaningless.

[IAMinyou]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]

Once you understand how you are created as the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR, then you will understand who is first and the last. In other words, there isn't anything else than the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR where all MEN ( male and female ) were created a long time ago.

Genesis 1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Genesis 2
7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

All the living beings ( human beings ) will perish during this temporary generation and all that is left is the IMAGE and VOICE of our CREATOR where all MEN exist.