Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Wootah »

What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #41

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:20 am
Miles wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:45 pm
Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is . at hand
Miles wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:45 pmMark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. [Was god's kingdom near?
Miles wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:00 pm
*at hand
nearby.
close in time; about to happen.

**near
2. only a short time ahead.

NOTE. Source for definitions: Dictionary of Oxford Languages



QUESTION #1 Do you want me to tell you what YOU believe he means when he said "near"/"at hand" or are you requesting me to explain what *I* believe he means when he said "near"/ "at hand"?

**NEAR
1.at or to a short distance away; nearby.
2. a short time away in the future.

**AT HAND
1. readily accessible when needed.
2. close in time; about to happen.

NOTE. Source for definitions: Dictionary of Oxford Languages

QUESTION #2 May I choose which of the two dictionary definitions is most appropriate to Jesus discourse or are you imposing the second one on me?


Please clarify as I don't like to argue strawmen (ie. I do not argue in defence of a position I do not hold) ,

In speaking about the kingdom of heaven in post 24 you said:"

"Was [the kingdom of heaven] at hand? YEP!"
"Was god's kingdom near? ABSOLUTELY!"
"Jesus got it all right : The kingdom of heaven was at hand."

To which I asked

Then
1. when did it arrive?
2. What's its nature? And
3. what's your evidence?

Failing to answer, I asked you again in post 26

Then:
1. when did it arrive?
2. What do you think its nature is ? And
3. what's your evidence?


Still failing to answer, I asked you again in post 28

1. when did it arrive?
2. What do you think its nature is ? And
3. what's your evidence?

Failing yet one more time, I asked you again in post 31

1. when did it arrive?
2. What its nature? And
3. what's your evidence?


And yet again in post 34

1. when did it arrive?
2. What's its nature? And
3. what's your evidence?

And now, to no one's surprise, you still haven't answered my questions. Questions posed to you five (5) times. Of course this comes as no surprise because it was a page or so ago that I began to realize you had no intention of ever answering, and for very evident reasons: YOU COULDN'T. I had you in a corner and all you could do was to continue Tap Dancing, which is both disappointing and certainly nothing to be proud of.

In any case, I've grown weary of your stalling, will let you off the hook, and leave you to what ever face-saving devices you can muster.


Have a good day.


.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #42

Post by Checkpoint »

Wootah wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:05 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

How can Jesus be a human being at all if his father is not human?
Easily.

Because of who his Father is.

His Father calls Himself YHVH; that is, "I am who I am; I will be who I will be".

He is The Different One, whose ways are not our ways, and who's thoughts are not our thoughts.

That means we cannot put Him into our little box and then say, You should have done it this way" or "You cannot do that".

He can and does do what He thinks and plans, when He likes, how He likes, and through whom He chooses.

Nothing is too hard for Him.

"The Logos became/was made, flesh".

I believe and accept that statement.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #43

Post by Wootah »

2timothy316 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:31 pm
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
The cost = an eternal life
The payment = an animal that lives 20 years
Are they equal? No.
Also was Jesus perfect?
Interesting that you'd ask this follow up question. Yet the cost and payment is not perfection.
I don't understand what you are saying.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #44

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:10 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:20 am
Miles wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:45 pm
Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is . at hand
Miles wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:45 pmMark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. [Was god's kingdom near?
Miles wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:00 pm
*at hand
nearby.
close in time; about to happen.

**near
2. only a short time ahead.

NOTE. Source for definitions: Dictionary of Oxford Languages



QUESTION #1 Do you want me to tell you what YOU believe he means when he said "near"/"at hand" or are you requesting me to explain what *I* believe he means when he said "near"/ "at hand"?

**NEAR
1.at or to a short distance away; nearby.
2. a short time away in the future.

**AT HAND
1. readily accessible when needed.
2. close in time; about to happen.

NOTE. Source for definitions: Dictionary of Oxford Languages

QUESTION #2 May I choose which of the two dictionary definitions is most appropriate to Jesus discourse or are you imposing the second one on me?


Please clarify as I don't like to argue strawmen (ie. I do not argue in defence of a position I do not hold) ,
... I've grown weary of your stalling, will let you off the hook, and leave you to what ever face-saving devices you can muster.


Have a good day.



I appreciate your sharing your feelings. I will remind you however that a basic premise in debate is to define ones terms. Until that is done to the satisfaction of both debators , endlessly repeating the initial question under consideration, is useless.

You provided one of two dictionary defintions and I am simply asking is you are open to the second definition which you chose not to include from your source, being used. That said, I respect your decision to end the exchange and I sincerely wish you a most joyful day,


Peace to you and Yours,

JW




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #45

Post by JehovahsWitness »

WAS JESUS REALLY HUMAN?
Wootah wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:05 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]

How can Jesus be a human being at all if his father is not human?
Sorry I missed your question earlier. The answer is because God can make a human out of anything... even dust. Jesus DNA was exactly like that of Adam, Adam was human although he didnt have a human father and was created out of dust. Both Jesus and the human man Adam owe their existence to JEHOVAH, which is why we call them both "sons of God" ; both were human because they both would have had what we later came to classify human DNA.

Jesus human life developed as any other human does from a single diploid cell. That the DNA therein was designed directly by God doesn't make him any less human than a so-called "test tube baby". A scientist manipulating the initial stages of development, doesnt mean he has created another lifeform since he is using the same building blocks we all have.

Image

Whether a cook makes the flour himself or obtains it from a miller, when he mixes it with eggs, milk and sugar and bakes it in an oven he'll still have a cake. Jesus was mixed differently but the ingredients were the same as me or you. 100% human, by miraculous intervention to be sure, but human nevertheless.




JW




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Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #46

Post by 2timothy316 »

Wootah wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:19 am
2timothy316 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:31 pm
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
The cost = an eternal life
The payment = an animal that lives 20 years
Are they equal? No.
Also was Jesus perfect?
Interesting that you'd ask this follow up question. Yet the cost and payment is not perfection.
I don't understand what you are saying.
Jesus didn't pay with his life just so that people can have perfection. He paid with his perfect body for everyone to have an opportunity for life. Adam gave his life to death. Removing himself from the Almighty, the source of life. People need more than air, water, shelter and food to keep living. A person needs to be spiritually connected to the source of all life, Jehovah. (Matthew 4:4)

No perfect person can come from two imperfect beings. thus Adam handed all of his offspring to death. Jesus' death brings life. His eternal life pays for the sin handed to us from Adam. Jehovah's perfect law must be kept. If it's not then God is not righteous and upright. Jesus' payment gives Jehovah the legal right to forgive all sins for all humans, if they want it. Handing mankind the option to join their God again removing the enmity between man and God. There is no creature on Earth that can provide what Jesus did. The sacrifices that people gave under the law code were a reminder of what was needed, served as a deterrent from wrong doing and to show that sin costs lives. The Bible says that the old Law Code can't bring perfection. (Hebrews 7:19) It was never intended to bring mankind to perfection. It was established to keep a promise of a blessing to Abraham and all the families of the Earth to undo everything that Adam had cursed the mankind with...death. (Gen 12:3, Rev 21:4)

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #47

Post by Revelations won »

Dear Wootah,

Your OP said:

“What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?”

My attempt to answer and respond to your questions:

I would say that these are both very great questions. I will first give you my views and understanding regarding your first question, however in answering the first question, the answer to the second question may become self evident,


My observation is that we should clearly understand what is referred to as “the Law of Moses” or the Law that Jehovah or God the Son gave to Moses.

I suspect that a good starting point we should learn is that the “law of Moses” I.e. the law which God gave to Moses was was not an end in and of it’s self, but was adapted or given as a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ.

For example, did the “law of Moses” provide an atonement for sins?

Did the “Law of Moses” provide the “Resurrection” for all mankind?

I think the answer to those questions is self evident.

In support of this view, does not the Bible make very clear that it was a vital part of God’s plan of redemption that it was necessary even before the “Foundations of the world” were even made that Christ was foreordained to be our Savior and redeemer?

Consider the following.


Isaiah 53:
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

John 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 1:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

After considering the above, I think hat it is impossible that we should be ignorant of the things which have been spoken concerning the coming of Christ.

Perhaps the great question which is in your mind is whether the word be in the Son of God, or whether there shall be no Christ?

My take is that the word is in Christ unto salvation.

My position is that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world.

My observation is that it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yes, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

If I understand your question clearly, you are asking “What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?”

My response: It is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

My take is that there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man should commit murder, behold will our law, meaning the “law of Moses”, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, absolutely not.

For the law requires the life of him who has murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yes, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpoweres justice, and brings about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

As I attempt to present my views and understanding of the “atonement”, I think that it is extremely important that we need to understand how the atonement works, for example what it does or does not do as well as what is required of us to receive it’s benefits. I would suggest that it is imperative that we understand that the principle of “agency” or the freedom of choice is of critical import applied to the “atonement”.

I would also ask, is not “faith in Jesus Christ” also a necessary and vital element required to motivate us to “act upon the atonement” as it applies teach of us?

We should so observe that the law required the life of him who has murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yes, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowers justice, and brings about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.

Therefore if we fail to exercise faith unto repentance, and fail to begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon us what can we expect? If we fail to cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save what can we expect?

So, Wootah, my take is that Christ was the only sinless man that could qualify to meet the requirements of that “that great and last and infinite atonement” which we sinners were unqualified to perform. I hope the foregoing answers your OP questions.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #48

Post by Overcomer »

JW wrote:
Jesus birth as a result of God miraculously implanting a ferilized egg in the womb of the virgin girl Mary without her engaging in any sexual activity. That life being shielded from any imperfection it might have inherited from its imperfect mother, meant Jesus did not inherit adamic sin* and his lifecourse of perfect integrity meant that he not only was conceived and born perfect but lived a perfect, sinless life.

He could thus present said human life as a perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind.
I thought JWs believed Jesus to be Michael the Archangel. How does that fit your description above?

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #49

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Overcomer wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:39 pm JW wrote:
Jesus birth as a result of God miraculously implanting a ferilized egg in the womb of the virgin girl Mary without her engaging in any sexual activity. That life being shielded from any imperfection it might have inherited from its imperfect mother, meant Jesus did not inherit adamic sin* and his lifecourse of perfect integrity meant that he not only was conceived and born perfect but lived a perfect, sinless life.

He could thus present said human life as a perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind.
I thought JWs believed Jesus to be Michael the Archangel. How does that fit your description above?
Michael is just another name for Jesus. Nothing changes if we call him Jesus, Micheal or The Word, we are still talking about the same PERSON.
  • When he was a mighty spirit in heaven he was called Michael or The Word
  • While he was a human on earth he was called Jesus
  • When he returned to heaven as a mighty spirit was once again called Michael /The Word

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #50

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW,

You posted:

"Michael is just another name for Jesus. Nothing changes if we call him Jesus, Micheal or The Word, we are still talking about the same PERSON.
When he was a mighty spirit in heaven he was called Michael or The Word
While he was a human on earth he was called Jesus
When he returned to heaven as a mighty spirit was once again called Michael /The Word"

Can you please provide the scriptural proof that Michael is Christ?

Kind regards,
RW

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