Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Wootah
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Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Wootah »

What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Miles
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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Miles »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
While what he did was special in the sense that it was the only means by which mankind to could gain salvation---as the story goes---it was really no sacrifice per se because it was his sole purpose of existence. As it's pretty well understood, Jesus was simply a manifestation of god in a human guise. It was no more a sacrifice than god putting on work clothes to do a certain job, and then when done working changing back into his robe. No big deal. Essentially, he was the same after as he was before.

Wootah wrote:Also was Jesus perfect?
Like in never making a mistake? If so, then he wasn't perfect because he made the mistake of thinking the end of the world was just around the corner

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:23

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 16:28

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


And so on.


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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by DavidLeon »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?
Without delving too deep into offerings made prior to the Law, for example Cain and Abel, Noah, Job and most importantly, Abraham / Isaac; these were thanksgiving. Or during the law in it's various manifestations; burnt, peace, sin, guilt, grain, drink, heave and wave offerings, they served their purpose. They were temporary foreshadows of a more perfect sacrifice. They were instruction. What they did is temporarily provide covering for sin, but more importantly they instructed the people regarding a) the sin itself and b) the need of the covering for that sin.

Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 explain this pretty well. I wouldn't say, though, that the previous sacrifices were insufficient.

Was Jesus perfect. Yes, but it's a relative term. Adam, before sin, was perfect in the sense of potential and innocence much the same as parents see their newborn children as perfect. Jesus was perfect in the sense that he was what we all were meant to be had there been no sin. Had Adam not sinned. Jesus demonstrated, not only that Adam could very well not have sinned, bringing death and destruction, but also that we can, through his sacrifice, attain that same perfection.
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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]

God didn't have to enter creation. I think we all underestimate that.

Jesus was the arrival of the Kingdom so I don't see your point as valid there. I won't tackle all of them. It is off-topic to my question really. But if you are correct and he was wrong then he was not perfect and not a sacrifice that can cover all our sins.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am
Also was Jesus perfect?
Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being.

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am What was special about Jesus's sacrifice ....?
It was the only perfect human sacrifice ever offered.
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am .... why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
Because all previous sacrifices were that of animals and could not be accepted by God to atone for loss of human life.







JW





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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #6

Post by Overcomer »

JW wrote:
Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being.
How is it possible that Jesus was a sinless human being?

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Overcomer wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:53 pm JW wrote:
Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being.
How is it possible that Jesus was a sinless human being?
It was possible because he was born as a result of an immaculate conception. Not having a human father, but having a human life that came as a result of Almighty God's (JEHOVAH) holy spirit, Jesus became the only truly perfect baby ever born.


LUKE 1:35

" “Holy spirit will come upon you,and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son "


Jesus birth as a result of God miraculously implanting a ferilized egg in the womb of the virgin girl Mary without her engaging in any sexual activity. That life being shielded from any imperfection it might have inherited from its imperfect mother, meant Jesus did not inherit adamic sin* and his lifecourse of perfect integrity meant that he not only was conceived and born perfect but lived a perfect, sinless life.

He could thus present said human life as a perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind.



* meaning the predisposition or tendence towards sinful behaviour all other humans are born with.






JW


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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Eloi »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #7]
Exactly.

Furthermore, Jesus did not arise when he was born human. He already existed in heaven as a powerful spirit beside God, before being converted by God into a baby in formation within the womb of his human mother. When he was born as a human, he was as perfect as he was before in heaven ... and more important than that: he remained faithful in perfection and learned to be obedient to God in a way that he had not experienced before. We can say that like his perfection was completed (Heb. 5:8,9).

John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Miles »

Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:24 am [Replying to Miles in post #2]

God didn't have to enter creation. I think we all underestimate that.
And he didn't have to create original sin just because two guileless people made a single mistake, but he did.
Wootah wrote: Jesus was the arrival of the Kingdom so I don't see your point as valid there.
Not at all sure what you mean by Jesus being an "arrival," and exactly what the Kingdom was. Aren't kingdoms places? And, why would Jesus's arrival as the Kingdom invalidate my point? Wasn't Jesus a manifestation of god in human form? As I understand it, when he arose from the grave Jesus took on the same spiritual form as part of the trinity he had before he was impregnated into Mary. No harm. No foul.
Wootah wrote: I won't tackle all of them. It is off-topic to my question really.
Really? You asked if Jesus was perfect and I made the observation that he wouldn't be if he made a mistake, and then went ahead with an example that he made the mistake of thinking the end of the world was just around the corner, which was followed with evidence of just that. SO, just how was any of this off topic to your question of Jesus being perfect? Is it not good debating form to supply evidence of one's claims?
Wootah wrote: But if you are correct and he was wrong then he was not perfect and not a sacrifice that can cover all our sins.
Okay.


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Last edited by Miles on Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:43 am
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am
Also was Jesus perfect?
Scripturally, yes Jesus was perfect; ie. a sinless human being.
Well scripturally, "perfect" as used in Matthew 19:21 doesn't mean without sin at all.

Matthew 19:21
"Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

And in talking to his disciples in Matthew 5:48 Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Think he expected them to go without sinning ever again? Of course not.

And certainly his use of "perfect" in Matthew 14:35-36
"35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;

36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole."


didn't mean they were suddenly sinless human beings.

So appropriating "perfect" in the scriptures to mean only sinless is without warrant no matter how handy it may be.


JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:28 am .... why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?
Because all previous sacrifices were that of animals and could not be accepted by God to atone for loss of human life.
Got any chapter and verse for this, or does it just sound reasonable?


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