Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Wootah
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Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Wootah »

What was special about Jesus's sacrifice and in contrast why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Also was Jesus perfect?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #91

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:22 pm




Obviously you're reading right past the:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Yes "this" was indicative of the generation he had been referring to namely, the generation that would witness end time events.

To illustrate : My great grandfather was born in 1925. They were the men that fought in the second world war and later rebuild the nation. This generation were real men.

The indicative pronoun "this " is pointing/indicating backwards to the generation that fought the war. If I was refering prophecy/predictions I could use "this" to point forward. Lets try ....

To illustrate : My great great granddaughter will be born in 2125 . Hers will be a time when people travel to outer space to work and babies are born in capsules. This generation will know time travel.

Image
The indicative pronoun "this " is here pointing forward to the generation that will be born far into the future


Neither of the pronouns ( "this" ) above are speaking of "this" our present 21st century generation. By reading the context it is clear Jesus at Matthew 24 was referring (pointing to /indicating) a future time and a future generation. This (future) generation would see all the events if Matthew chapter 24-25.





JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE GENTILE TIMES , THE GENERATION and ...THE SECOND COMING *
*The Return of Christ
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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #92

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:43 pmBy reading the context it is clear Jesus at Matthew 24 was referring (pointing to /indicating) a future time and a future generation. This (future) generation would see all the events if Matthew chapter 24-25.
Who is the (plural) "you" to whom Jesus repeatedly speaks through chapter 24 (and Mark 13)? Are they not part of "this generation?" By reading the context it is clear that Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples from verses 3-4 and warning them directly about the events. Or is Jesus breaking the fourth wall and speaking past his narrative audience to future readers of Mark and Matthew?

Edited to add:

Here is the commentary note on Mark 13:30 from the International Critical Commentary volume on Mark by Ezra P. Gould:
ἡ γενεὰ αὕτηthis generation. The word is always used by Jesus to denote the men living at that time. This use is sufficient against the supposition that it means the Jewish race, or the human race, devices introduced to make it possible to interpret the prophecy as applying to the end of the world. But what meaning would either have as marks of time for the general winding up of human affairs? No, the statement means that these events are to take place during the lifetime of Jesus’ contemporaries, and the events are, therefore, what the whole prophecy surely indicates, those connected with the fall of the Jewish state and the destruction of Jerusalem. πάντα ταῦτα—Here is the answer to those who suppose that the prophecy is to be divided into two parts, one predicting the Jewish catastrophe, and the other the world-catastrophe. All these things, and not the minor part of them, are to take place within that generation.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #93

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:43 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:22 pm




Obviously you're reading right past the:

Matthew 24:34
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Yes "this" was indicative of the generation he had been referring to namely, the generation that would witness end time events.

To illustrate : My great grandfather was born in 1925. They were the men that fought in the second world war and later rebuild the nation. This generation were real men.

The indicative pronoun "this " is pointing/indicating backwards to the generation that fought the war. If I was refering prophecy/predictions I could use "this" to point forward. Lets try ....

To illustrate : My great great granddaughter will be born in 2125 . Hers will be a time when people travel to outer space to work and babies are born in capsules. This generation will know time travel.
The indicative pronoun "this " is here pointing forward to the generation that will be born far into the future


Neither of the pronouns ( "this" ) above are speaking of "this" our present 21st century generation. By reading the context it is clear Jesus at Matthew 24 was referring (pointing to /indicating) a future time and a future generation. This (future) generation would see all the events if Matthew chapter 24-25.

If so then Jesus would not have said:

Matthew 24: 1- - ->34
1Jesus departed from the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the buildings of the temple and point them out to Him.

2 But He answered them [the disciples he was speaking to], Do you [the disciples he was speaking to] see all these? Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to], there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

4 Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [the disciples he was speaking to] [deceiving you and leading you into error].

5 For many will come in (on the strength of) My name, saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.

6 And you [the disciples he was speaking to] will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you [the disciples he was speaking to] are not frightened or troubled, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in place after place;

8 All this is but the beginning [the early pains] of the birth pangs [of the intolerable anguish].

9 Then they will hand you [the disciples he was speaking to] over to suffer affliction and tribulation and put you to death, and you [the disciples he was speaking to] will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
.
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15 So when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place—let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]
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33 So also when you [the disciples he was speaking to] see these signs, all taken together, coming to pass, you [the disciples he was speaking to] may know of a surety that He is near, at the very doors.
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34 Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to] , this generation [the whole multitude of people then living at the same time] will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.


(bolded verse numbers, XX, are those verse in which the disciples were suppose to experience some aspect of the "the end,")


So because the generation did, in fact, pass and "all these things" were not fulfilled, Jesus was mistaken about them. Image




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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #94

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:43 pmBy reading the context it is clear Jesus at Matthew 24 was referring (pointing to /indicating) a future time and a future generation. This (future) generation would see all the events if Matthew chapter 24-25.
Who is the (plural) "you" to whom Jesus repeatedly speaks through chapter 24 (and Mark 13)?
Christians alive at the time being spoken about. We do a similar thing in modern English

"In the year 2323 we will be living in colonies on Mars"
"We" here does not refer to the speaker and the listener/reader but humanity in general and the sector of himanity alive during that time in particular. The speaker/writer himself and all his generation will be long dead, so the "we" cannot be referring to those alive at the time of writing.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #95

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:30 pm
If so then Jesus would not have said:

Matthew 24: 1- - ->34
1Jesus departed from the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the buildings of the temple and point them out to Him.

2 But He answered them [the disciples he was speaking to], Do you [the disciples he was speaking to] see all these? Truly I tell you [the disciples he was speaking to], there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

Nobody is contending that Jesus was not speaking to his disciples (verses 1, 2) , but the question he was asked (v3) concerned both them and a future generation. Note:
3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
A "when " question opens up the answer to the present (now) or the future. Let us look at an example.
QUESTION When will time travel be possible?
ANWSER: When humans have colonized Mars and babies are born in synthetic pods.
Just because I asked the question this morning, there is nothing that complels the answer to apply to this morning. Jesus answered the "when " part of the composite question not by saying "about now" but by providing a set of world events (when you [general you as in "when one /we/Christians see] "all these things").

The first century "you"'s saw some of the things but they did not see "all these things" so Jesus was projecting to a generation that would.





JW




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Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:07 amChristians alive at the time being spoken about. We do a similar thing in modern English
"In the year 2323 we will be living in colonies on Mars"
Yeah, except that's not the context of Mark 13/Matthew 24. Jesus is talking to his inner circle of friends and saying things like "make sure no one tricks you." That's not so much "we will be living in colonies on Mars," but more "look out for that truck!"

Actually, if we weren't in T&D, I might agree with you, at least as Matthew interprets it. Mark makes so many other riffs on "time is short" that he can only mean "time is short" that even if the conversation is one between Mark and his readers ("Let the reader understand!") that he put in the mouths of his Jesus and disciple characters, he still means "time is short." Matthew might be reinterpreting that to be a conversation about the distant future, though, but here in T&D, I think we have to accept that it represents a historical conversation between a real Jesus and real disciples. Within the context of a real conversation between friends rather than a literary construct, your harmonization attempt doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #97

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:09 amActually, if we weren't in T&D, I might agree with you, at least as Matthew interprets it.

Mark makes so many other riffs on "time is short" that he can only mean "time is short"
Do you have a reference (chapter and verse)?



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

Post #98

Post by Difflugia »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:12 amDo you have a reference (chapter and verse)?
I'm rather surprised that you don't, but here you are, anyway.
  • Mark 1:15 ("The time is fulfilled, and God’s Kingdom is at hand!")
  • 8:12 ("He sighed deeply in his spirit and said, 'Why does this generation seek a sign? Most certainly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation.'")
  • 8:38 ("For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.")
  • 9:1 ("He said to them, 'Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste death until they see God’s Kingdom come with power.'")
  • 10:29-30 ("Jesus said, 'Most certainly I tell you, there is no one who has left house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or land, for my sake, and for the sake of the Good News, but he will receive one hundred times more now in this time: houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and land, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life.'")
  • 13:20 ("Unless the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the sake of the chosen ones, whom he picked out, he shortened the days.")
  • 13:34-37 ("Watch therefore, for you don’t know when the lord of the house is coming...")
My preferred pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:15 am

Nobody is contending that Jesus was not speaking to his disciples (verses 1, 2) , but the question he was asked (v3) concerned both them and a future generation. Note:
Nope. They didn't ask about any "future generation," but simply "when?"

Matthew 24:3
3 Later, Jesus was sitting at a place on the Mount of Olives. The followers came to be alone with him. They said, “Tell us when these things will happen. And what will happen to prepare us for your coming and the end of time?”

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?
A "when" question opens up the answer to the present (now) or the future.[/quote]

And Jesus's answer was "This generation." IOW, now. In the present generation.


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Re: Why were none of the previous sacrifices to God sufficient?

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:15 am

Nobody is contending that Jesus was not speaking to his disciples (verses 1, 2) , but the question he was asked (v3) concerned both them and a future generation.
Nope. They didn't ask specifically about "a future generation," but simply "when?"

Matthew 24:3
3 Later, Jesus was sitting at a place on the Mount of Olives. The followers came to be alone with him. They said, “Tell us when these things will happen. And what will happen to prepare us for your coming and the end of time?”

3 While He was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately and said, Tell us, when will this take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end (the completion, the consummation) of the age?

A "when" question opens up the answer to the present (now) or the future.
And what was Jesus's reply? It was "This generation." IOW, now, during the present generation, which is clear by the verses leading up to Matthew 24:34.


.............. Have a good day.


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