Jesus Sacrificing His Life

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Miles
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Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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In several threads I've seen here it's been said that Jesus sacrificed his life so that those who "believed in him" would gain salvation.

That a person will gain salvation is not in question, but rather the claim that Jesus, the Son of god, sacrificed, his life.

Sacrifice
verb
1. to willingly give up something one would otherwise rather keep.


"In terms of Jesus' sacrifice, anyone familiar with the Bible will first think of His sacrificial death at Calvary to atone for the sins of mankind. His crucifixion was indeed the greatest act of sacrifice in the history of the world, a perfect demonstration of His own teaching in John 15:13,"

source

Looking at the pre-existence of Jesus some say, ". . . from all eternity the Son has been enjoying the love and glory that he shares with God the Father."
source
which is as good a claim as any. Then god sent his Son down to earth where he was incarnated as Jesus in main to die for man's sins. After that was accomplished the Son returned to god where he now sits on his right hand. As sort of an analogy, it's like an American going to France for a year where he expends his energy working for the the government, and then returns to the USA to resume his life. Essentially no change in the guy from before he went to France to after he came back.

As a form of god Jesus certainly had to know what he would be doing on earth, including orchestrating events so as to be crucified. So, my question is, where is the sacrifice Jesus was supposed to have made? Everything went as he wanted them to go: swimmingly.


So, is this about it, Jesus's death was no "greatest act of sacrifice in the history of the world," or even any sacrifice at all, OR have I missed something here?



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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #2

Post by 2timothy316 »

Billions of worthless humans for one man....I guess if a person thinks that all of mankind is not worth anything then I guess they don't see Jesus' death as really that big a deal. Or they see their own life as valueless, yeah Jesus' didn't do anything special.

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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #3

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:08 pm ....Jesus certainly had to know what he would be doing on earth, including orchestrating events so as to be crucified.
Jesus didn't "orchestrate events so as to be crucified" All the attempts on his life were orchestrated by those that hated him.
Jesus faced to several attempts on his life, none of which were self inflicted. As a young child it came from Herod, Jesus only "crime" then was evidently being born. As an adult from his own townsfolk, the religious leaders and finally he was pronounced innocent by the highest court in the land but still executed, an innocent man thrown to a mob screaming for his blood.
In short, anyone that has read the biblical narrative can see Jesus at no time orchestrated events to bring about his own demise, but what he did do was always speak the truth, which in times of deceit is one of the most dangerous things one can do.



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:43 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:08 pm ....Jesus certainly had to know what he would be doing on earth, including orchestrating events so as to be crucified.
Jesus didn't "orchestrate events so as to be crucified" All the attempts on his life were orchestrated by those that hated him.
Considering one of the necessary aspects of his mission on Earth, to be crucified, or die in a similar notable way, it's a certainty that he worked toward that end. Setting out to anger those who would, in turn, help him achieve his goal.
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Jesus faced to several attempts on his life, one of which were self inflicted. As a young child it came from Herod, Jesus only "crime" then was evidently being born. As an adult from his own townsfolk, the religious leaders and finally he was pronounced innocent by the highest court in the land but still executed, an innocent man thrown to a mob screaming for his blood.
In short, anyone that has read the biblical narrative can see Jesus at no time orchestrated events to bring about his own demise, but what he did do was always speak the truth, which in times of deceit is one of the most dangerous things one can do.
No, "orchestrated" is exactly the right word to describe what Jesus did: control the circumstances around him in such a way as to insure he would be remembered as the Messiah and eventually be crucified for it.
As part of the god-head he was surely smart enough and knowledgeable enough to know that his death would be the fulfillment of his ministry; therefore, his activities were all done with that goal in mind. He was certainly aware that to be crucified he would have to get a judgement against him by the Roman authority in the area, who at the time was Pontius Pilate, the governor of Jerusalem, and the easiest way to do that was to infuriate the Jewish authorities enough so as to persuade Pilate to take action against him. So, Jesus created a band of disciples who would be his front men. Leading up to the time of the Passover Jesus would go to synagogues and tell the congregants he was the Messiah, god's chosen one as prophesied in the ancient Jewish scriptures, a claim they considered to be blasphemous and which, of course, really angered them. Enough so that some even tried to kill him. Continuing with this tactic, Jesus eventually saw the need to reassure his disciples he was who he claimed he was, and had himself transfigured into a divine being, whereupon his disciples saw him talking to the prophets of old, and concluded he had a direct link with god like no one else.
With his disciples reinvigorated and the Passover coming up, he had them procure a donkey upon which he purposely rode into the city, as was prophesied of the coming Messiah. While such gall angered the Jews in the community it wasn't enough to really PO the Jewish authorities, so he set out to further anger them by seizing on the fact that the temple was being used for money exchanges and traders, where he aggressively upset their tables and businesses. Now enraged, the Jewish authorities "arrested" him and took him to the high priest who condemned him for blasphemy, the crime of claiming to be the son of god. After a couple of trials the high priest sent Jesus to Pontius Pilate---keep in mind that Jesus was probably thee wisest person on earth and knew exactly what he was doing, and that his planned demise was just days away. Whatever Pilate's motives may have been, he acquiesced to the high priest, tried Jesus, found him guilty, and sentenced to be crucified. And all of this with Jesus's complete foreknowledge and understanding.


So, nope, you're mistaken. Jesus planned it all and then saw to it that his plan would succeed. And why wouldn't he? He was the son of god and could do anything he wanted, from changing water into wine, to walking on water, to insuring his reputation and subsequent death would go as planned.


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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Jesus was the Messiah and had every right to reveal himself as such. No single action or group of actions on his part merited death except in the perverted minds of his enemies. Speaking truth did indeed infuriate the Jewish leaders of his day but this no more amounted to planning his own murder, than speaking out against racism meant Martin Luther King arranged to have himself shot.


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #6

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #4]
Jesus planned it all and then saw to it that his plan would succeed. And why wouldn't he? He was the son of god and could do anything he wanted, from changing water into wine, to walking on water, to insuring his reputation and subsequent death would.
Your claim is based on human reasoning.

To be taken seriously, the onus is on you to show us, from Scripture properly applied, that what you allege is valid, actual, and truthful.

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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

Post #7

Post by Overcomer »

Miles wrote:
So, is this about it, Jesus's death was no "greatest act of sacrifice in the history of the world," or even any sacrifice at all, OR have I missed something here?
It was the greatest sacrifice because:

1. It was done for the redemption of all of humankind (John 3:16: For God so loved the world). No one else can make that claim.

2. It was done for people who were unworthy of it (Rom. 5: 7, 8: Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us).

3. He took the punishment for ALL the sins of humankind and incurred God the Father's wrath, something that I don't think we can even begin to imagine (Rom. 3:25: For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God’s anger against us.)

4. He did not deserve to be sacrificed (Heb. 4: 14-15: He knew no sin).

5. He bore all the sicknesses that anyone in the world has ever had (Is. 53: 4: It was certainly our sickness that he carried.) I heard one pastor put it this way: Imagine someone giving you 100 gallons of diseases including the bubonic Plague, all kinds of cancers, AIDS, etc. and you had to drink all of them and feel the effects of every single one of those illnesses. How horrible would that be?

6. He was cut off from God the Father on the cross (Mark 15:34: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?). I have been in the presence of God by times and I can tell you that it is glorious. Imagine how devastating it must have been for Jesus to lose that connection. His was a far longer and deeper intimate relationship than what we mere mortals can experience while still on this earth. Because he became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), he experienced separation from God, a kind of agony that people will know in hell, and he went through it so that we don't have to if we choose not to.

That's why there has been no greater sacrifice than that which Christ gave. It has to do with the depth and horror of its intensity, its incomparable redemptive purpose, the number and kind of people for whom he gave his life entirely out of love, the fact that he was innocent and undeserving of such treatment, and, ultimately, the unparalleled extent of its effect -- no one else could bring people dead in sin to life again. Only Jesus can do that and it was only through his sacrifice that it could happen.

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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

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Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:55 pm Jesus was the Messiah and had every right to reveal himself as such. No single action or group of actions on his part merited death except in the perverted minds of his enemies.
And having an essentially divine mind, Jesus was aware of this and used it to his advantage to provoke them into him plotting a punishment, which would ultimately be his crucifixion.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Speaking truth did indeed infuriate the Jewish leaders of his day but this no more amounted to planning his own murder, than speaking out against racism meant Martin Luther King arranged to have himself shot.
Of course not, the planning had already been done by Jesus, and part of that planning was to establish his claimed Messiahship among the Jewish population, which would have spread to the ears of the Jewish authorities, including that of the High Priest; something needed to get Pilate in on the plan. Jesus knew what would be needed to effect his crucifixion and took all the necessary steps to insure it. Think he wasn't aware that claiming to be the son of god was blasphemy, and deserving of punishment? Of course he was.


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Last edited by Miles on Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

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Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:49 pm [Replying to Miles in post #4]
Jesus planned it all and then saw to it that his plan would succeed. And why wouldn't he? He was the son of god and could do anything he wanted, from changing water into wine, to walking on water, to insuring his reputation and subsequent death would.
Your claim is based on human reasoning.
So, tell me what other reasoning, a different kind of reasoning, is spinning around in the universe, and how it works. AND, your evidence please.


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Re: Jesus Sacrificing His Life

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Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:52 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:55 pm Jesus was the Messiah and had every right to reveal himself as such. No single action or group of actions on his part merited death except in the perverted minds of his enemies.
And having an essentially divine mind, Jesus was aware of this and used it to his advantage to provoke them into him plotting a punishment, which would ultimately be his crucifixion.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Speaking truth did indeed infuriate the Jewish leaders of his day but this no more amounted to planning his own murder, than speaking out against racism meant Martin Luther King arranged to have himself shot.
Of course not, the planning had already been done by Jesus, and part of that planning was to establish his claimed Messiahship among the Jewish population, which would have spread to the ears of the Jewish authorities, including that of the High Priest. Something needed to get Pilate in on the plan. Jesus knew what would be needed to effect his crucifixion and took all the necessary steps to insure it. Think he wasn't aware that claiming to be the son of god was blasphemy, and deserving of punishment?


How is claiming to be the Son of God blasphemy?

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