The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

[onewithhim]

Daniel's chapter about the great image (chapter 2) is very significant within any discussion of the end times and when God's Kingdom comes (Matt.6:9,10). After perusing this chapter, and perhaps viewing this image on other websites, what is your understanding of the meaning of this image and its being hit by a rock from the mountain?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Sojournerofthearth in post #46]

Hi, Soj,

It is good to quote relevant passages of Scripture, but easy to not do quite so well in making our own statements about it agree with what it actually says.

For example, you wrote this:

Babylon, or the Beast power is not the Woman who rides the Beast.

Revelation17 says:

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

BABYLON THE GREAT

THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES

AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

7b the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides

18 "The woman you saw IS the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

[JehovahsWitness]

Babylon, ... is not the Woman who rides the Beast.

I was refering to "Babylon The Great" depicted in Revelation 17

REVELATION 17:1, 5

And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast .... On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great

This woman, Babylon the Great, is indeed riding on a beast.

The woman that rides the Beast, is a political entity, is a religious system that rides or masters the Beast system

• So you think Babylon the Great (mentioned in Revelation) is both a political AND a religious entity? Is that correct?

• If so, what do the kings of the earth (Rev 17:2, 18:3) with whom she commits sexual immorality represent ?

JW

[onewithhim]

Checkpoint, I wonder if you read my posts on the legs and feet of the image. I think it's quite succinct and reasonable, what I wrote. I also asked you some questions that you haven't answered. I would appreciate your answers.

Thanks.

Yes, onewithhim, I am aware of your posts, but have not read them with any intention to agree or disagree, or add any further comment.

However, I am not aware of any questions you asked of me.

Please tell me which posts, or ask the questions again.

Thanks.

Please inform me as to why you have discounted my posts from the discussion.

.

[onewithhim]

Dear JW and IAMinyou,

I did respond to both of you, but it appears that both are able to respond and answer my questions. The interpretation of Daniel's dream was given by revelation. Your interpretation of Daniel's dream is given without revelation and is therefore the answers given are of your own conclusions.

I trust you have clear answers to my questions that I asked of you in this debate.

Kind regards,
RW

This is onewithhim. I asked you some questions which you haven't answered.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #42]

JW, are you not confusing the Beast with the woman who rides the beast? One a world ruling empire, the other, the woman, or church, who masters it?

Soj

The Beast is the world wide system of man's governments. The woman who rides it is all false religion, which has been influencing the governments of the earth for millennia. Soon the Beast will turn on Babylon the Great and expose "her" and symbolically burn her up.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #23]

Thus, the Anglo-American world power came into existence as the 7th world power of Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Oh?

Daniel 2:

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom,

43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed

45b The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

What do you have to say, onewithhim?

The verse doesn't say "finally" there is a 4th kingdom. The New American Standard Bible says:

"Then there will be a 4th kingdom as strong as iron." This kingdom is identified as Rome. The 5th world power alluded to is, as I wrote in my posts, the Anglo-American world power. After all these kingdoms make their appearance, God's Kingdom crushes them all. The reference to the 7th world power comes from the parallel account in Revelation (that I posted earlier).

Do you have anything more to say about what I have posted? I thought you weren't reading my posts.

.

[Checkpoint]

Checkpoint, I wonder if you read my posts on the legs and feet of the image. I think it's quite succinct and reasonable, what I wrote. I also asked you some questions that you haven't answered. I would appreciate your answers.

Thanks.

Yes, onewithhim, I am aware of your posts, but have not read them with any intention to agree or disagree, or add any further comment.

However, I am not aware of any questions you asked of me.

Please tell me which posts, or ask the questions again.

Thanks.

Please inform me as to why you have discounted my posts from the discussion.

I understand why that is your response.

I have not discounted your posts from the discussion. I see them as a quite legitimate part of the discussion on this your own thread.

What I have discounted is my own engagement regarding those aspects you specified.

I will continue to post on this thread my own response to your opening thread post, with a further post or two to add to the two already posted, to hopefully complete that task.

By the way, onewithhim, I was very pleased to see what this new thread you started was about, and how well you had then presented it to us.


.

[bjs1]

Very good, BJs1, but for two things, in my humble estimation. Could you elaborate on the feet of clay and iron and just how the Roman empire was divided?

I fear this requires a greater invest of time then I currently have. You can find ample resources on the history of the Roman Empire if you are interested. Just recognize that this is the kind of thing that requires an entire book, not just a web site.

I can explain it in a few paragraphs. Starting with Rome, the power that crushed like a beast of iron.....the legs of iron.....which pictured not only the Roman Empire but its political outgrowth. Check out these words at Revelation 17:10: "There are 7 kings (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is (Rome, at the time when Revelation was written), the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while (250 years is 'short')." The 8th king was also to fall (the sixth king of Nebuchadnezzar's dream). The king after Rome---the 7th king of the dream---would arise from one of Rome's captured territories. What would that be?

Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. By the year 1763 it had become the British Empire, that "ruled the 7 seas." By 1776 its American colonies had declared their independence and set up the United States of America. In later years Britain and the United States became partners in war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American world power came into existence as the 7th world power of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power."

More later, on the feet and toes.

.

The most significant problem I see with this is that it requires us to change the way we interpret the passage mid-vision.

The vision begins by saying that the head of the statue is made of pure gold. We are told directly that this symbolizes the Babylonians Empire under Nebuchadnezzar (2:38). Then we are told that after the Babylonians then “another kingdom will rise.” (2:39) This kingdom, the Median-Persian Empire, was symbolized by the chest and arms of silver.

So the head of the statue is explicitly described as a single kingdom that would eventually end and be replaced by another kingdom of the same nature, though in some way inferior to the kingdom that came before it. The next two parts of the statue – the chest of silver and the belly of bronze – follow the same pattern.

To take your interpretation we would have to say that, without giving us any indication of the change, the final segment of the statue symbolizes something entirely different. It would symbolize both the Roman Empire and its legacy lasting for thousands of years.

This is not a reasonable interpretation. Nothing in the text suggests that what had thus far been a consistent symbolic meaning would change so radically near the end of the vision. However we interpret the passage, the legs of iron should be viewed as a single political kingdom like the three parts of the statue before it. We should reject any interpretation that drastically departs form the established pattern of the vision without any textual justification.

[JehovahsWitness]

To take your interpretation we would have to say that, without giving us any indication of the change, the final segment of the statue symbolizes something entirely different. It would symbolize both the Roman Empire and its legacy lasting for thousands of years.

Emphasis MINE

The Roman empire was "different. It wasn't overthrown like predecessors, it decayed from within. Rome underwent a long slow decline eventually fragmenting into various kingdom which arose from within its empire.

"without giving us any indication of [a] change"? We note at the feet of the statue, there is no a clear demarcation as there had been before with one material giving way to a completely different one. This is the first time we have one material "bleeding" into another; something different is clearly being indicated.

Britain, originally a Roman province, would eventually rise to prominence from within the empire, representing an outgrowth from the old Roman Empire rather than its conquerer.

The statue is divided into sections as it is being presented with each section representing a new power : 1) head 2) chest & armes 3) abdomen & thighs 4) legs and finally ...5) feet. If we respect this pattern, then the feet do indeed represent a new/different power, distinct from (but evidently somehow connected to) its predecessor .

Regardless of the reading a new pattern is imposed at the feet An interprétation (yours) that conclude the new section (feet) no longer represents a new kingdom one abandons the precedent ( arguably "without giving ... any indication of the change"). One can do that OR one can by respect the previous pattern of "new section=new kingdom" but as indicated in the text, recognize that something from the old (iron) is present in the new.

"without giving us any indication of [a] change"? Since only in 4 and 5 however we see a repetition of material (iron) at the very least there is something different about this changeover (if there is one )OR this part of the description (if there is not). What de cannot say is that the description gives no indication something is different at the feet. The only question is : what is being indicated?

WHEN IS AN END NOT AN END?

While the argument has been made that Daniel's prophecy ends with Rome's decline, that is not where the vision ends. The whole image is struck by a rock from heaven. So either Rome is still the world power (awaiting its destruction ) or its strength (iron) was passed on to a new empire.

Its important to note that the kingdoms of the figure each represented a power that had an influence on God's people. While their presence was continous up until the first century, Gods people (as represented by true Christianity ) ceased to exist as a single unified body at the end of that century. It would be two millennia before a world power could impact on God's people as a group again.

CONCLUSION While it is true a reading of the ANGLO-AMERICAN world power feet of iron and clay demands a shift in focus, the prophecy itself dictates we should do so. The fact that no other section of the image is made of two materials, that Rome, after the first century could have no further impact on Gods people as an organzed body, and that the final world power (in its weakened state) is replaced by God's Kingdom, all leads to a conclusion that a shift in focus for the feet is in order.

RELATED POSTS

Why can the rock from the mountain not be the true Christian church
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[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #23]

Thus, the Anglo-American world power came into existence as the 7th world power of Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Oh?

Daniel 2:

40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom,

43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
44 In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed

45b The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

What do you have to say, onewithhim?

The verse doesn't say "finally" there is a 4th kingdom. The New American Standard Bible says:

"Then there will be a 4th kingdom as strong as iron."

This kingdom is identified as Rome. The 5th world power alluded to is, as I wrote in my posts, the Anglo-American world power. After all these kingdoms make their appearance, God's Kingdom crushes them all. The reference to the 7th world power comes from the parallel account in Revelation (that I posted earlier).

Do you have anything more to say about what I have posted? I thought you weren't reading my posts.

Well, onewithhim, I do now have more to say, from reading again this post of yours.

You are quite right concerning the word "finally" in some translations of verse 40. It isn't in the Hebrew and should not be in any translation.

This thread, which you started, is about Daniel 2, about the king's dream and its interpretation. Nothing more.

I therefore consider any later revelations cannot legitimately be used to add to what God revealed at that time in that dream and its interpretation.

Yes, we are at a much later point in history, and that is what helps us to look back to, with hindsight, see how the dream both was and will be fulfilled, just as God always intended.

That has been my goal in writing my first two posts (which could, I guess, be said to be introductory).

It will likewise be my goal in my third(and fourth, if that is needful) post that will conclude my answer to your post that introduces this thread.