The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

Daniel's chapter about the great image (chapter 2) is very significant within any discussion of the end times and when God's Kingdom comes (Matt.6:9,10). After perusing this chapter, and perhaps viewing this image on other websites, what is your understanding of the meaning of this image and its being hit by a rock from the mountain?

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #61

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #58]
The most significant problem I see with this is that it requires us to change the way we interpret the passage mid-vision.

To take your interpretation we would have to say that, without giving us any indication of the change, the final segment of the statue symbolizes something entirely different. It would symbolize both the Roman Empire and its legacy lasting for thousands of years.

This is not a reasonable interpretation. Nothing in the text suggests that what had thus far been a consistent symbolic meaning would change so radically near the end of the vision.

However we interpret the passage, the legs of iron should be viewed as a single political kingdom like the three parts of the statue before it.

We should reject any interpretation that drastically departs form the established pattern of the vision without any textual justification.
Good, and valid, basic point. Well presented.

I intend to soon post the third part of my understanding of Daniel 2, and will be taking this very point into account in the process.

I think there is some textual justification.

Furthermore, in my view, suitable textual justification is not only there, but is fully confirmed by God's earlier and later revelation.

That is, of how it all fits into God's thoughts and ways, as displayed so wonderfully some 2000 years ago, in the Good News of the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 2 is, afterall, about the clash of two kingdoms.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #62

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:18 pm Daniel's chapter about the great image (chapter 2) is very significant within any discussion of the end times and when God's Kingdom comes (Matt.6:9,10). After perusing this chapter, and perhaps viewing this image on other websites, what is your understanding of the meaning of this image and its being hit by a rock from the mountain?
This is my third post that completes my direct response to the above.

The three posts cover:

1). The stone(rock):(post #18)

2). The great image:(post #36)

3). The stone/rock strike, and the mountain

A). The relevant text:
34 While you were watching, a stone/rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and broke them up.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold, were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

44 {b]In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom[/b]that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

B). The clash of kingdoms:

Daniel 2 is actually about what the whole Bible features as both its backdrop and its reality.

It is the tale of two cities, Jerusalem and Babylon.

But more than that, it is about the clash of two kingdoms.

. One falls and fails, and eventually is no more. That is the dominion of darkness led by the devil and his angels, whose many followers here built their own city, Babylon.

The first to build his own city was Cain, who was also the first to kill a fellow human, Genesis 4:8,17.

The other kingdom is the kingdom of light, better known as the kingdom of God.

Although it seems sometimes to have lost a battle, it has amazing resilience, and always is a winner in the end, and eventually reigns supreme for ever more.

C). Setting the scene:

Our text, Daniel 2, echos and features key aspects of this battle of the ages.

But there is a much earlier text that sets the scenario we find in Daniel 2.

Genesis 3:
13Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
Cursed are you above all

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your seed and hers;
he will bruise your head,
and you will strike his heel
.”
Is our Daniel text telling us something similar about these things?

Yes, yet they are not identical.

When we put them together, however, we have a far more complete summary of God's revelation of what His plan is for the salvation of so many over time.

D). What the two texts convey.

Jesus of Nazareth is both "her seed" in Genesis 3 and "the stone/rock" in Daniel 2.

He struck the great image in Daniel 2, and was himself struck by the serpent in Genesis 3.

When did this happen, what did they strike, and what did those strikes result in?

It all happened "in the time of those kings", verse 44. They each struck the feet, which indicates the strikes were not fatal. Each would continue to do what they do.

However, we now know that one became disabled, and the other became enabled.

The stone/rock strike achieved both. It broke up those kingdoms in order to "set up" God's kingdom.

Which included the death of Jesus, who is not only the stone/rock but also the seed of the woman.

The serpent fell into the trap, arranged for his minions to collude together and kill that seed, by striking his heel.

As it is written:
1 Corinthians 2:

7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Hebrews 2:

“13b Here am I, and the children God has given me.” j

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
E). The great mountain

"But the stone/rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth." Verse 35b.

How does the stone become a huge mountain?

One step at a time, one stone after another, one seed becomes many, in time.

Again, as it is written:
John 12:

23 But Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

24 Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Matthew 13:

31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field.
32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

1 peter 2:

4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house a to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:20

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

Revelation 11:15

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and He will reign for ever and ever.”
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:02 pm, edited 9 times in total.

IAMinyou
Student
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:59 am
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #63

Post by IAMinyou »

Checkpoint wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:38 pm [Replying to bjs1 in post #58]
The most significant problem I see with this is that it requires us to change the way we interpret the passage mid-vision.

To take your interpretation we would have to say that, without giving us any indication of the change, the final segment of the statue symbolizes something entirely different. It would symbolize both the Roman Empire and its legacy lasting for thousands of years.

This is not a reasonable interpretation. Nothing in the text suggests that what had thus far been a consistent symbolic meaning would change so radically near the end of the vision.

However we interpret the passage, the legs of iron should be viewed as a single political kingdom like the three parts of the statue before it.

We should reject any interpretation that drastically departs form the established pattern of the vision without any textual justification.
Good, and valid, basic point. Well presented.

I intend to soon post the third part of my understanding of Daniel 2, and will be taking this very point into account in the process.

I think there is some textual justification.

Furthermore, in my view, suitable textual justification is not only there, but is fully confirmed by God's earlier and later revelation.

That is, of how it all fits into God's thoughts and ways, as displayed so wonderfully some 2000 years ago, in the Good News of the Kingdom of God.

Daniel 2 is, afterall, about the clash of two kingdoms.
The Roman Catholic Church and Vatican ( feet of IRON ) and the 40,000 denominations of Protestant Christianity ( feet of CLAY ) were both used to put together a New Testament with writings by religious heathens who stole some words from the saints of the first witness of the 1000 year reign of Christ and mixed them with their religious stories that go back to the early Babylonian, Persian, Greek and into the Roman times along with traditions from the religious Jews and other various beliefs that have nothing to do with what the saints preached for our FATHER.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #64

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:20 pm Checkpoint, I wonder if you read my posts on the legs and feet of the image. I think it's quite succinct and reasonable, what I wrote. I also asked you some questions that you haven't answered. I would appreciate your answers.

Thanks.
Yes, onewithhim, I am aware of your posts, but have not read them with any intention to agree or disagree, or add any further comment.

However, I am not aware of any questions you asked of me.

Please tell me which posts, or ask the questions again.

Thanks.
Please inform me as to why you have discounted my posts from the discussion.
I understand why that is your response.

I have not discounted your posts from the discussion. I see them as a quite legitimate part of the discussion on this your own thread.

What I have discounted is my own engagement regarding those aspects you specified.

I will continue to post on this thread my own response to your opening thread post, with a further post or two to add to the two already posted, to hopefully complete that task.

By the way, onewithhim, I was very pleased to see what this new thread you started was about, and how well you had then presented it to us.


.
I'm sorry....I thought you seemed to be totally uninformed about what the iron legs and the feet with both iron and clay means, and I had already explained all that. I thought that if you had read my post you would know.

.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #65

Post by onewithhim »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:09 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:40 pm
bjs1 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:48 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 pm Very good, BJs1, but for two things, in my humble estimation. Could you elaborate on the feet of clay and iron and just how the Roman empire was divided?
I fear this requires a greater invest of time then I currently have. You can find ample resources on the history of the Roman Empire if you are interested. Just recognize that this is the kind of thing that requires an entire book, not just a web site.
I can explain it in a few paragraphs. Starting with Rome, the power that crushed like a beast of iron.....the legs of iron.....which pictured not only the Roman Empire but its political outgrowth. Check out these words at Revelation 17:10: "There are 7 kings (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece), one is (Rome, at the time when Revelation was written), the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while (250 years is 'short')." The 8th king was also to fall (the sixth king of Nebuchadnezzar's dream). The king after Rome---the 7th king of the dream---would arise from one of Rome's captured territories. What would that be?

Britain was once a northwestern part of the Roman Empire. By the year 1763 it had become the British Empire, that "ruled the 7 seas." By 1776 its American colonies had declared their independence and set up the United States of America. In later years Britain and the United States became partners in war and peace. Thus, the Anglo-American world power came into existence as the 7th world power of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. The iron legs of the dream image thus include both the Roman Empire and the Anglo-American dual world power."

More later, on the feet and toes.

.
The most significant problem I see with this is that it requires us to change the way we interpret the passage mid-vision.

The vision begins by saying that the head of the statue is made of pure gold. We are told directly that this symbolizes the Babylonians Empire under Nebuchadnezzar (2:38). Then we are told that after the Babylonians then “another kingdom will rise.” (2:39) This kingdom, the Median-Persian Empire, was symbolized by the chest and arms of silver.

So the head of the statue is explicitly described as a single kingdom that would eventually end and be replaced by another kingdom of the same nature, though in some way inferior to the kingdom that came before it. The next two parts of the statue – the chest of silver and the belly of bronze – follow the same pattern.

To take your interpretation we would have to say that, without giving us any indication of the change, the final segment of the statue symbolizes something entirely different. It would symbolize both the Roman Empire and its legacy lasting for thousands of years.

This is not a reasonable interpretation. Nothing in the text suggests that what had thus far been a consistent symbolic meaning would change so radically near the end of the vision. However we interpret the passage, the legs of iron should be viewed as a single political kingdom like the three parts of the statue before it. We should reject any interpretation that drastically departs form the established pattern of the vision without any textual justification.
I don't see any departure from the way that the image had been explained beginning with Babylon. The legs and feet can be explained by reviewing the history of Rome and its off-spring. I see no difference in how we are looking at the image. We have to look at history to decipher the identities of the chest and belly. Why not the rest of the image?

.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #66

Post by Checkpoint »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:16 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:20 pm Checkpoint, I wonder if you read my posts on the legs and feet of the image. I think it's quite succinct and reasonable, what I wrote. I also asked you some questions that you haven't answered. I would appreciate your answers.

Thanks.
Yes, onewithhim, I am aware of your posts, but have not read them with any intention to agree or disagree, or add any further comment.

However, I am not aware of any questions you asked of me.

Please tell me which posts, or ask the questions again.

Thanks.
Please inform me as to why you have discounted my posts from the discussion.
I understand why that is your response.

I have not discounted your posts from the discussion. I see them as a quite legitimate part of the discussion on this your own thread.

What I have discounted is my own engagement regarding those aspects you specified.

I will continue to post on this thread my own response to your opening thread post, with a further post or two to add to the two already posted, to hopefully complete that task.

By the way, onewithhim, I was very pleased to see what this new thread you started was about, and how well you had then presented it to us.
I'm sorry....I thought you seemed to be totally uninformed about what the iron legs and the feet with both iron and clay means, and I had already explained all that. I thought that if you had read my post you would know.

That's ok, onewithhim.

Perhaps it's now my turn.

I have given you a full answer to your thread opening post.

Please, have you any comments or observations on that answer?

Which is on these posts: 18, 36, and 62.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #67

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:02 am This is my third post that completes my direct response to the above.

So you believe ..
1). The stone(rock):(post #18) is JESUS

2). The great image:(post #36) represents the Kingdoms of this world

... but is isnt clear to me, who /what you believe is represented by...

4). The Feet ??

5). The mountain ??

6). The stone/rock strike ??

Can you please clarify?


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #68

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:34 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:16 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:02 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:01 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:20 pm Checkpoint, I wonder if you read my posts on the legs and feet of the image. I think it's quite succinct and reasonable, what I wrote. I also asked you some questions that you haven't answered. I would appreciate your answers.

Thanks.
Yes, onewithhim, I am aware of your posts, but have not read them with any intention to agree or disagree, or add any further comment.

However, I am not aware of any questions you asked of me.

Please tell me which posts, or ask the questions again.

Thanks.
Please inform me as to why you have discounted my posts from the discussion.
I understand why that is your response.

I have not discounted your posts from the discussion. I see them as a quite legitimate part of the discussion on this your own thread.

What I have discounted is my own engagement regarding those aspects you specified.

I will continue to post on this thread my own response to your opening thread post, with a further post or two to add to the two already posted, to hopefully complete that task.

By the way, onewithhim, I was very pleased to see what this new thread you started was about, and how well you had then presented it to us.
I'm sorry....I thought you seemed to be totally uninformed about what the iron legs and the feet with both iron and clay means, and I had already explained all that. I thought that if you had read my post you would know.

That's ok, onewithhim.

Perhaps it's now my turn.

I have given you a full answer to your thread opening post.

Please, have you any comments or observations on that answer?

Which is on these posts: 18, 36, and 62.
To Checkpoint:

I went back over your posts 18, 36 and 62. Thank you for your well thought out responses. You are close to my line of thinking. You say that the rock/stone that comes out of the mountain is Jesus Christ. Certainly he is incorporated into the identity of the stone, for the stone signifies God's Kingdom government of which Jesus is the ruler. So I wouldn't disagree with you there.

You said that the great image refers to all of the world's kingdoms, and that jives with my thought that the image signifies all of the great kingdoms that had a direct influence on Jehovah's people. In Daniel, first was Babylon. Yes, Babylon, in some form or another, as you mentioned, has had much influence on all kingdoms that came afterward, but as Daniel said, it would be conquered by another kingdom which history shows turned out to be Medo-Persia (the silver arms and upper torso). Then Greece (copper mid-section) conquered Medo-Persia, and Rome (iron legs) conquered Greece. That is what history shows the various metals to represent. The Anglo-American world power historically has sprung from the old world power, Rome, and is active now. The feet stand for a politically divided world, and we see that everywhere. Seeing that we are living in this time, we know that the end of this old system is very near.

Your idea of a battle of the kingdoms is correct, in that worldly governments will continue to battle everything that involves Jesus and his Father, right down to their end. Men's governments against God's government. Psalms states: "The kings of the earth take their stand and high officials have massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one." (Psalm 2:2) Revelation tells us: Jesus shows up from heaven and battles with the world's nations. "Out of his mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword, that he may strike the nations with it, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron." (Rev.19:11-15) The account goes on to show that national governments will be deleted and those that fought against Jesus will be eaten by the birds. This happens at Armageddon.

Concerning Genesis 3:15, Satan figuratively bit Jesus on his heel when the Jews had Jesus killed in the first century. The crushing of Satan's head is still in the future, after the thousand-year reign of Christ. That is when Satan goes off into oblivion (Rev.20:10).

Now, how does this differ from how you look at it? Please explain once again, in simple terms, so my little brain can understand. Thanks.

Checkpoint
Prodigy
Posts: 4069
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
Has thanked: 105 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #69

Post by Checkpoint »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:25 am
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:02 am This is my third post that completes my direct response to the above.

So you believe ..
1). The stone(rock):(post #18) is JESUS

2). The great image:(post #36) represents the Kingdoms of this world

... but is isnt clear to me, who /what you believe is represented by...

4). The Feet ??

5). The mountain ??

6). The stone/rock strike ??

Can you please clarify?


JW
What I wrote is found in posts 18, 36, and 62.

I think clear answers are there, except perhaps the feet.

The feet were part of the fourth kingdom that existed when Jesus, the stone, came.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: The Great Image of Daniel chapter 2

Post #70

Post by onewithhim »

To Checkpoint....Do you intend to respond to my post #68? :)

Post Reply